×
  • remind me tomorrow
  • remind me next week
  • never remind me
Subscribe to the ANN Newsletter • Wake up every Sunday to a curated list of ANN's most interesting posts of the week. read more
You are welcome to look at the talkback but please consider that this article is over 6 years old before posting.

Forum - View topic
Answerman - Why Can't Western Publishers Make New HD Remasters of Anime?


Goto page 1, 2  Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
FLCLGainax





PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:25 pm Reply with quote
It's surprising the few times a Japanese licensor entrusts an overseas licensor with film elements, like Discotek with the Fatal Fury movie and Cinelicious with Belladonna of Sadness. It may have something to do with renewed interest in these movies coming from outside the Japanese market.
Did the gorgeous HD transfers of Vampire Hunter D (1985) and the Street Fighter II movie come from Italian and French distributors?


Last edited by FLCLGainax on Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
I_Drive_DSM



Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 217
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:34 pm Reply with quote
Being an employee in the public sector for film preservation, I believe that the general public doesn't have a real grasp of the challenges presented by pre-digital analog formats. It's immense in all sense of the word and there are no easy solution(s).

In addition to pretty much everything mentioned, one very big issue during the 80s/90s was accepted analog format(s). Many companies pushed their products off onto companies during this time, and there was a sense of a race of sorts in what type of analog format was acceptable. Thus you get a tremendous amount of 2nd generation reproduction "masters" in a variety of formats; UMatic, D2, Beta, etc, with very little in-operability. Even if you do have the means by which to access these formats, most of these transfers are HEAVILY dependent on high-quality equipment to produce anything remotely acceptable to modern viewership.

Storage is another prime issue. You really need to have ideal storage conditions (literally segmented, climate & humidity controlled rooms) to properly store analog tapes and reels. Most companies do not have/had this sort of space available nor could they dedicate resources to properly HVAC control. Even if older masters of materials from say the 80s/90s are located, there is a good chance of material deterioration that would require a lot of digital clean-up work. In a good deal of cases it may not even be worth it.

Format and storage issues lead to a lot of instances of where stock of analog tapes and films were simply discarded. Once you realize you're running out of space and a vendor tells you "oh yeah you'll have no issues with the footage on so-and-so format" things quickly got discarded. This was fairly prominent in the broadcasting industry. I'd imagine that indeed there are a lot less "original masters" of footage out there than we may think, but as far as 2nd Gen reproduction "masters" there's probably a good handful of them of older series out there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vee-Tee



Joined: 12 Aug 2015
Posts: 98
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:48 pm Reply with quote
Media preservation, eh?

I love archiving and library science and I just *wish* people would give it a fair shake! A lot of companies have such poor archives, it's ridiculous. Or they have an archive, but nobody records, say, when the file was taken out of the box and transferred elsewhere, or is just floating around the office in somebody's drawer or something.

That's just in the office environment, I can imagine a similar thing for analog media - tapes and animation cels and such. I'm sure somebody at the BBC or NBC can now draw up whatever aired at 10pm on [Insert Channel Here] on Tuesday [date] of [month] of [year] and that's marvellous - but stuff that just gets logged in a warehouse in a box for years... it's very precious and irreplaceable.

Are there ever actual, genuine cases of anime being lost in warehouse fires? There's the original Osomatsu series?) being lost after it aired in the 1960s but in the 1990s, somebody was able to find the original film and submit it to the rights holders: [url]https://lostmediawiki.com/Osomatsu-kun_(found_anime_series;_1966)[/url]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
samuelp
Industry Insider


Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 2235
Location: San Antonio, USA
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:15 pm Reply with quote
If you want to get access to a new HD remaster of a show in Japan, there's basically 1 way to do it: Offer to pay for Imagica or another place in Japan with existing relationships with studios there to do it, in exchange for accessing the data, and just throw them the money and hope they do it right.

You'll never get the actual film in your possession.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
epicwizard



Joined: 03 Jul 2014
Posts: 420
Location: Ashburn, VA
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:51 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
There are a number of shows that I'm sure film elements are completely lost for. You can tell because Japan keeps re-releasing ratty old analog masters of them, even on Blu-ray.

I wonder if Shin-chan and Nintama Rantaro are those types shows where most (if not all) the film elements of the cel animated episodes are completely lost. An HD remaster of the cel animated episodes has yet to surface in Japan. Or if the sheer number of episodes is what's delaying an HD remaster. If the film elements do exist, then an HD remaster of at least some of the episodes needs to happen sooner or later. Those re-releases sourced from the old analog masters look terrible.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MarshalBanana



Joined: 31 Aug 2014
Posts: 5378
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:56 pm Reply with quote
I understand the lack of preservation back in the 60s and 70s, with no home media, there was little point in storing something that you may very well never rebroadcast. I've heard that with Saze-San, they have never rebroadcast any of the episodes, aside from an anniversary special.

In the case of not having the original master, why don't they do what they did with DBZ Kai, or is that too expensive?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 7580
Location: Wales
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:06 pm Reply with quote
Conversely, "film vault fires" is supposedly why a bunch of old "lost" porn on nitrate film has come to light recently, because it was being stored in a police vault somewhere and someone there realised there might be a problem with this after watching Inglorious Basterds.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number My Anime My Manga
BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 6002
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:58 pm Reply with quote
MarshalBanana wrote:

In the case of not having the original master, why don't they do what they did with DBZ Kai, or is that too expensive?


That and it potentially invites the same questions that Kai had surrounding it's aspects like why make an HD tweak of an old series where you have some newly drawn scenes but keep everything the same even if it clashes with the old stuff.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trilaan



Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 1058
Location: Texas
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:38 pm Reply with quote
On this note, I am SO FRICKIN' HAPPY that The Irresponsible Captain Tylor is getting an HD blu-ray release in 2018! So. Frickin'. Happyyyyyyyyyyyyy..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zalis116
Moderator


Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 6875
Location: Kazune City
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:52 pm Reply with quote
I_Drive_DSM wrote:
Storage is another prime issue. You really need to have ideal storage conditions (literally segmented, climate & humidity controlled rooms) to properly store analog tapes and reels. Most companies do not have/had this sort of space available nor could they dedicate resources to properly HVAC control.
Put another way, Japan doesn't have the geological equivalent of Kansas salt mines in their country.

Quote:
American companies have often been told a specific classic show they're after has no good elements, or that the film has been lost, and then a brand new HD version magically shows up on Japanese store shelves a year later. I've heard gossip that "Show X had its masters lost in a fire," so many times, only to later be completely proven wrong, that I've stopped believing it.
*cough*Toei and Sailor Moon*cough*cough*, although I guess that was more a matter of a remastered DVD version that was mysteriously withheld from Viz, despite being used for a recent R2J DVD release and subsequent releases in Italy and elsewhere.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 3717
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:11 pm Reply with quote
MarshalBanana wrote:
I understand the lack of preservation back in the 60s and 70s, with no home media, there was little point in storing something that you may very well never rebroadcast. I've heard that with Saze-San, they have never rebroadcast any of the episodes, aside from an anniversary special.

In the case of not having the original master, why don't they do what they did with DBZ Kai, or is that too expensive?


I think we can add AnimEigo's/Robert Woodhead's upcoming Gun Smith Cats HD BD kickstarter to the small list too.
animenewsnetwork.com/news/2017-12-03/animeigo-to-crowdfund-gunsmith-cats-blu-ray-disc/.124808

How they're able to get a hold of the master films and make an actual HD transfer bluray when Japan doesn't have one after all this time, seem nothing short of a miracle.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kasumicc



Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 26
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:46 pm Reply with quote
Zalis116 wrote:
*cough*Toei and Sailor Moon*cough*cough*, although I guess that was more a matter of a remastered DVD version that was mysteriously withheld from Viz, despite being used for a recent R2J DVD release and subsequent releases in Italy and elsewhere.


I really have to wonder if Toei has the film materials at all, their recent Japanese Blu Ray release for Sailor Moon is not that good. Italy's release source is a mystery for everyone, and fans are not quite sure just from *where* did Italy get their masters from, since popular opinion says that the Italian release has better quality than both the R2J DVD and the Japanese Blu Ray. If there really is one single master, that would mean that Toei's just awful in processing it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NJ_



Joined: 31 Oct 2009
Posts: 3028
Location: Wallington, NJ
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:19 pm Reply with quote
kasumicc wrote:
I really have to wonder if Toei has the film materials at all, their recent Japanese Blu Ray release for Sailor Moon is not that good. Italy's release source is a mystery for everyone, and fans are not quite sure just from *where* did Italy get their masters from, since popular opinion says that the Italian release has better quality than both the R2J DVD and the Japanese Blu Ray. If there really is one single master, that would mean that Toei's just awful in processing it.


Yeah and speaking of the Japanese upscale, Madman in Australia has recently gotten some heat for this because they picked up those masters for their own Blu-ray releases and announced that they're also using it for the SuperS & Sailor Stars DVDs instead of the Italian masters, which had been used for the previous 3 seasons, so they went from using good video to downscaling an upscale of not so good video.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mr Adventure



Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 1598
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:46 am Reply with quote
I've heard rumors that huge chunks of original film elements for Armored Trooper Votoms were lost in a flood (shining Heresy and Mellowlink in particular) and this makes me terribly sad.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:32 pm Reply with quote
I_Drive_DSM wrote:
Being an employee in the public sector for film preservation, I believe that the general public doesn't have a real grasp of the challenges presented by pre-digital analog formats. It's immense in all sense of the word and there are no easy solution(s).

In addition to pretty much everything mentioned, one very big issue during the 80s/90s was accepted analog format(s). Many companies pushed their products off onto companies during this time, and there was a sense of a race of sorts in what type of analog format was acceptable. Thus you get a tremendous amount of 2nd generation reproduction "masters" in a variety of formats; UMatic, D2, Beta, etc, with very little in-operability. Even if you do have the means by which to access these formats, most of these transfers are HEAVILY dependent on high-quality equipment to produce anything remotely acceptable to modern viewership.

Storage is another prime issue. You really need to have ideal storage conditions (literally segmented, climate & humidity controlled rooms) to properly store analog tapes and reels. Most companies do not have/had this sort of space available nor could they dedicate resources to properly HVAC control. Even if older masters of materials from say the 80s/90s are located, there is a good chance of material deterioration that would require a lot of digital clean-up work. In a good deal of cases it may not even be worth it.

Format and storage issues lead to a lot of instances of where stock of analog tapes and films were simply discarded. Once you realize you're running out of space and a vendor tells you "oh yeah you'll have no issues with the footage on so-and-so format" things quickly got discarded. This was fairly prominent in the broadcasting industry. I'd imagine that indeed there are a lot less "original masters" of footage out there than we may think, but as far as 2nd Gen reproduction "masters" there's probably a good handful of them of older series out there.


While I can't truly undersand the difficulties in film preservation, I do have an idea of it and never once thought it was easy--I mean, you wouldn't have paid professionals if it was easy.

It doesn't really explain the number of times a Japanese representative will say that they don't have it, in some way or another, then go release it soon afterward. The way the column was written, it DOES sound like there's some degree of intentional holding back.

While apprehension in letting someone outside of the company (and outside of the country) handle one-of-a-kind materials is understandable, I'd bet at least some of it is to ensure the Japanese version remains superior in some way, so as to curb reverse importation from the west. I mean, the reason why those One Piece home video releases from FUNimation had such terrible art for a while was because Toei prohibited FUNimation from using anything but a few pieces of clip art and specific screenshots on the box, and that had an explicit purpose to make them look not-so-good so they could sell the more expensive ones domestically.

Vee-Tee wrote:
Are there ever actual, genuine cases of anime being lost in warehouse fires? There's the original Osomatsu series?) being lost after it aired in the 1960s but in the 1990s, somebody was able to find the original film and submit it to the rights holders: [url]https://lostmediawiki.com/Osomatsu-kun_(found_anime_series;_1966)[/url]


Though it's not anime, there was a fire at Aardman Studios in 2005 that wiped out nearly all of the plasticine models, every archived piece of concept art, and most of the sets produced over the years there. Aardman, for the record, is best known for Wallace & Gromit, and at that point, the only models that survived the fire were a Wallace and a Gromit creator Nick Park was carrying with him for events and conventions.

To my knowledge, the film itself was not lost. But pretty much everything you'd see in those films were.

NJ_ wrote:
kasumicc wrote:
I really have to wonder if Toei has the film materials at all, their recent Japanese Blu Ray release for Sailor Moon is not that good. Italy's release source is a mystery for everyone, and fans are not quite sure just from *where* did Italy get their masters from, since popular opinion says that the Italian release has better quality than both the R2J DVD and the Japanese Blu Ray. If there really is one single master, that would mean that Toei's just awful in processing it.


Yeah and speaking of the Japanese upscale, Madman in Australia has recently gotten some heat for this because they picked up those masters for their own Blu-ray releases and announced that they're also using it for the SuperS & Sailor Stars DVDs instead of the Italian masters, which had been used for the previous 3 seasons, so they went from using good video to downscaling an upscale of not so good video.


Now, I don't know much about this besides that there are some much better sources for Sailor Moon than others and were not fairly distributed, but considering the mysterious nature of the Italian source, it is possible that this Italian company is not allowing anyone to use it. Or are there other countries that may have gotten it from this Italian company?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group