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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 13229
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:16 pm Reply with quote
Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:
So, spoiler[I am not buying Asuna just will-powering her way out of a paralysis set by the game's creator anymore than I can accept Kirito's "but I'm not dead yet!" moment. Akihiko clearly didn't know about it, and he created the game.] Pulling things out of nowhere like that is, IMO, just bad writing.


spoiler[But Kayaba wasn't expecting it either. The whole thing was how those two surpassed the world he created. That's why he allowed himself to get killed.]

Besides, the Power of Love conquers everything!
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CTB



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 36
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:48 pm Reply with quote
Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:

So, spoiler[I am not buying Asuna just will-powering her way out of a paralysis set by the game's creator anymore than I can accept Kirito's "but I'm not dead yet!" moment. Akihiko clearly didn't know about it, and he created the game.] Pulling things out of nowhere like that is, IMO, just bad writing.


Keep in mind SAO was the 1st version of VR games using the 1st version Nerve Gear, in the real world both in software and hardware developments there are always unintended "glitches" especially the 1st version. I imagine the use of mass paralysis by the GM can't really be thoroughly QAed and there were already hints to show Kirito was special as he was awarded with the dual blade skill. spoiler[Depending on how far the anime will continue into the novel. The issue of individual's brain reactions/controls (more so Kirito's) will play more roles in later stories, the author appears to have planned those "glitches" well in advance.]
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getchman
Space Cowboy



Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:27 pm Reply with quote
massive anti-climax aside, still loving this show. cant wait to see what happens next
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Tuor_of_Gondolin



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:38 pm Reply with quote
CTB wrote:
Keep in mind SAO was the 1st version of VR games using the 1st version Nerve Gear, in the real world both in software and hardware developments there are always unintended "glitches" especially the 1st version. I imagine the use of mass paralysis by the GM can't really be thoroughly QAed and there were already hints to show Kirito was special as he was awarded with the dual blade skill. spoiler[Depending on how far the anime will continue into the novel. The issue of individual's brain reactions/controls (more so Kirito's) will play more roles in later stories, the author appears to have planned those "glitches" well in advance.]

Since everyone's responses to my last post were pretty similar to one another, I'll just answer this last one, but I'm responding to all three.

Even if what you guys say about the programming and powers of the mind and it being 1st gen -- all of those things. Even if that's true (and I think they were all good points), that doesn't stop it from being bad writing, IMO. If he had shown some indication of this sort of thing being possible beforehand, I could've accepted it *far* more easily.

For example, the episode I mentioned before with the Laughing Coffin guy. We did see Kirito move... a little. And I think the Laughing Coffin guy attributed it to Kirito's willpower, but even so, it was far short of allowing Kirito to save himself: the basic purpose of the poison (rendering Kirito helpless) remained intact. And Kirito's life was totally on the line there.

Around 4,000 people died in SAO. And there was never any indication that any of them were able to spoiler[delay their deaths], nor was there any indication of being able to override the game's coding through will alone. A good author would've at least given some rumors or other tidbits to indicate that things aren't quite so sharply structured as they seem. But, as far as I could tell, there was never any foreshadowing or other methods provided before this was sprung on us. That's why I call it bad writing.

This story may turn into one of those "unlimited power of the human will" type things (that humanists love so dearly). But I still think it should've been built up from earlier in the series.
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Relenus



Joined: 06 Mar 2012
Posts: 42
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:43 pm Reply with quote
I can't be the only one who was having Walking Dead flashbacks during the credits scene, right?
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ZorgonXtreme



Joined: 23 Feb 2004
Posts: 251
Location: Anchorage, AK
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:47 pm Reply with quote
Relenus wrote:
I can't be the only one who was having Walking Dead flashbacks during the credits scene, right?


Wouldn't it be interesting if the next arc was that during the two years of SAO, the zombie infection from High School of the Dead took place and now Kirito has to fight the horde to go save Asuna and re-establish Sword Art Online just so they can die in a happier place?
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Tuor_of_Gondolin



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:05 pm Reply with quote
ZorgonXtreme wrote:
Relenus wrote:
I can't be the only one who was having Walking Dead flashbacks during the credits scene, right?


Wouldn't it be interesting if the next arc was that during the two years of SAO, the zombie infection from High School of the Dead took place and now Kirito has to fight the horde to go save Asuna and re-establish Sword Art Online just so they can die in a happier place?

The EMP would be the end of them in SAO. Razz
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ZorgonXtreme



Joined: 23 Feb 2004
Posts: 251
Location: Anchorage, AK
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:26 pm Reply with quote
Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:
ZorgonXtreme wrote:
Relenus wrote:
I can't be the only one who was having Walking Dead flashbacks during the credits scene, right?


Wouldn't it be interesting if the next arc was that during the two years of SAO, the zombie infection from High School of the Dead took place and now Kirito has to fight the horde to go save Asuna and re-establish Sword Art Online just so they can die in a happier place?

The EMP would be the end of them in SAO. Razz


Oh, right. I forgot about that.

Well, I'm sure Kirito would find a way to stay alive.
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15464
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:42 pm Reply with quote
You are right Tuor_of_Gondolin, how dare an anime have their main character suddenly gain some sort of power at the climax of a large fight. We should totally expect much more.

And all of Kirito's complaints about the world being to limited by its rules and by numbers, that totally does not count as foreshadowing. He should have at least stated that he wanted to overcome the rules by his own min. What is it, like some sort of precedent made now that could hold relevance over a longer series, and even spread into another series written by the same auther.

They could have given the main character some sort past distres over dying in the game, or at least make him express some sort of opinion if he only tried harder could he have saved people.
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Bugnin



Joined: 09 Sep 2012
Posts: 575
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:44 pm Reply with quote
Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:
CTB wrote:
Keep in mind SAO was the 1st version of VR games using the 1st version Nerve Gear, in the real world both in software and hardware developments there are always unintended "glitches" especially the 1st version. I imagine the use of mass paralysis by the GM can't really be thoroughly QAed and there were already hints to show Kirito was special as he was awarded with the dual blade skill. spoiler[Depending on how far the anime will continue into the novel. The issue of individual's brain reactions/controls (more so Kirito's) will play more roles in later stories, the author appears to have planned those "glitches" well in advance.]

Since everyone's responses to my last post were pretty similar to one another, I'll just answer this last one, but I'm responding to all three.

Even if what you guys say about the programming and powers of the mind and it being 1st gen -- all of those things. Even if that's true (and I think they were all good points), that doesn't stop it from being bad writing, IMO. If he had shown some indication of this sort of thing being possible beforehand, I could've accepted it *far* more easily.

For example, the episode I mentioned before with the Laughing Coffin guy. We did see Kirito move... a little. And I think the Laughing Coffin guy attributed it to Kirito's willpower, but even so, it was far short of allowing Kirito to save himself: the basic purpose of the poison (rendering Kirito helpless) remained intact. And Kirito's life was totally on the line there.

Around 4,000 people died in SAO. And there was never any indication that any of them were able to spoiler[delay their deaths], nor was there any indication of being able to override the game's coding through will alone. A good author would've at least given some rumors or other tidbits to indicate that things aren't quite so sharply structured as they seem. But, as far as I could tell, there was never any foreshadowing or other methods provided before this was sprung on us. That's why I call it bad writing.

This story may turn into one of those "unlimited power of the human will" type things (that humanists love so dearly). But I still think it should've been built up from earlier in the series.



A little bit of foreshadowing in the kuradeel arc that was left out of the anime: asuna broke the actual speed limits of the game to arrive in time to save Kirito.

Again, wish they had included little details like this in the anime.
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getchman
Space Cowboy



Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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Location: Bedford, NH
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:58 pm Reply with quote
Bamboo's next stream post should be entertaining. i have no doubt that everyone is going to talk the episode to death
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CTB



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 36
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:32 pm Reply with quote
Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:

For example, the episode I mentioned before with the Laughing Coffin guy. We did see Kirito move... a little. And I think the Laughing Coffin guy attributed it to Kirito's willpower, but even so, it was far short of allowing Kirito to save himself: the basic purpose of the poison (rendering Kirito helpless) remained intact. And Kirito's life was totally on the line there.


Well you picked the right point here, but slightly off on the reason why Kirito tries hard. He only tries hard not when it's just for himself but for someone else, as when Asuna was in danger and Kirito just happen to come out of paralysis to save her. The author is trying to show Kirito is a selfless type of person.

Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:

Around 4,000 people died in SAO. And there was never any indication that any of them were able to spoiler[delay their deaths], nor was there any indication of being able to override the game's coding through will alone. A good author would've at least given some rumors or other tidbits to indicate that things aren't quite so sharply structured as they seem. But, as far as I could tell, there was never any foreshadowing or other methods provided before this was sprung on us. That's why I call it bad writing.


When Kirito spoiler[die and came back its not like he lasted a long time in that state, so the probability when that also happened in some of the 4K people that died and others noticed they came back for a brief period are not great.] (Novel spoiler) spoiler[There are a couple of times in the novel explains when Kirito pushes the limit of the game where he experience everything else slows down are all contributed to his brain reaction with nerve gear, but those details are left out of the anime]

[EDIT: Adjusted spoiler tags. - Key]
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Spotlesseden



Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: earth
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:49 pm Reply with quote
Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:

Around 4,000 people died in SAO. And there was never any indication that any of them were able to spoiler[delay their deaths], nor was there any indication of being able to override the game's coding through will alone. A good author would've at least given some rumors or other tidbits to indicate that things aren't quite so sharply structured as they seem. But, as far as I could tell, there was never any foreshadowing or other methods provided before this was sprung on us. That's why I call it bad writing.

This story may turn into one of those "unlimited power of the human will" type things (that humanists love so dearly). But I still think it should've been built up from earlier in the series.


that's why you should pay attention to the anime instead of complain about the same thing ever week. There is an item in the game that can revive a dying player within 10 secs of their dead. IF there is an item can do this, then the gamemaster should able to do the same thing too. please, go watch ep 3 again.

Later in the anime it should explain that
spoiler[
Akihiko Kayaba saved Asuna and Kirito's life. he will also give Kirto Excalibur(for a fight) and the World Seed.]
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Tuor_of_Gondolin



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
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Location: Bellevue, WA
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:28 am Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:
You are right Tuor_of_Gondolin, how dare an anime have their main character suddenly gain some sort of power at the climax of a large fight. We should totally expect much more.

And all of Kirito's complaints about the world being to limited by its rules and by numbers, that totally does not count as foreshadowing. He should have at least stated that he wanted to overcome the rules by his own min. What is it, like some sort of precedent made now that could hold relevance over a longer series, and even spread into another series written by the same auther.

They could have given the main character some sort past distres over dying in the game, or at least make him express some sort of opinion if he only tried harder could he have saved people.


I'm sure he did want to overcome its rules. So did the 4000 people who died. But, over a 2 year period, there was never any indication that such a thing was possible. There was never anything in the story prior to this to imply such a thing was possible.

In Dragonball Z, Goku gaining a "mysterious power" and going Super-Saiyan, is foreshadowed repeatedly, almost ad nauseam. In SAO, *no one* was shown to be able to overcome the limits of its rules and numbers. Not in 2 years of trying (and dying). There is nothing to even hint that such a thing is possible -- even Kirito, faced with death at the hands of that Laughing Coffin guy, couldn't do it. Yet in the climax of the arc, spoiler[both he and Asuna do so]? Bad writing, IMO.

Spotlesseden,

Your argument, at least, relies on something shown in a previous episode. However, it was a game item that allowed this to happen (presumably after 10 seconds, there's nothing left to be revived). My argument is that there is no time where it is shown that a PC was able to override the rules of the game through willpower, not that a person was irretreivably lost the moment they died in the game.

Going in to what happens later to help justify this doesn't erase what the viewer is given to know at this point, which is when the whole belief/disbelief thing occurs. If, say, during the duel between Kirito and Heathcliff in the arena, Kirito had shown some ability which the viewer realized was beyond what the game should allow, even if it was a small thing, I would be able to look back and say "aaah, so *that's* what that was about", and I wouldn't be taking the stance I am now.

Bugnin wrote:
A little bit of foreshadowing in the kuradeel arc that was left out of the anime: asuna broke the actual speed limits of the game to arrive in time to save Kirito.

Again, wish they had included little details like this in the anime.

Ah. Now this is what I'm talking about. That would have changed my opinion of what happened in the last episode. Thanks for mentioning it.

And CTB, you mentioned that, too. Thanks. So this is mainly an issue with the anime writers trying to shoe-horn stuff in and things like this getting cut away. I'm glad the original writer did use proper foreshadowing, then.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:48 am Reply with quote
Last night I watched an episode of Doctor Who where a regular guy manages to stop being a Cyberman through sheer strength of will. Yes, I'm going somewhere with this. The rules in the Doctor Who universe are so bendy to the point of being non-existent. The Doctor (and his human companions) always finds a way; this was even lampshaded in the very episode I watched last night. If a person watches Doctor Who they do so knowing and even appreciating this fact, and the show's creators and writers celebrate it too. I would never complain that it doesn't make sense for the Doctor to pull a solution out of nowhere, because it actually does make sense in the context of his wacky anything-goes universe.

In Sword Art Online however, there are rules, rules which people shouldn't be able to break just through sheer willpower alone. And yet they do break those rules (as long as they're the main character of course). These instances of rule-breaking are hints to spoiler[the Incarnate System] which gets star treatment in Accel World's second half. But how are we to know this? And does spoiler[the Incarnate System] adequately justify SAO players pulling off the impossible and breaking the world's rules like Neo from The Matrix? I just don't know.
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