Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! - Gender Rolls
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Fencedude5609
Posts: 5088 |
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But this is just "times change, so what is reflected in the popular culture changes" Also, pulling this out:
TASTES CHANGE. Thats the entire point. Things that were "in" back in the 80s are...no longer in! Complaining about that is basically "Get off my lawn" territory, and isn't even worthy of actual discussion. |
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Swissman
Posts: 768 Location: Switzerland |
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Yes, it indeed is. I didn`t pretended the contrary.
Why do you scream?
I didn`t complain. I just wrote how I see differences in aesthetics between older series and new anime and why, that`s all. |
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Galap
Moderator
Posts: 2354 |
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What do you mean by that? I don't find older works (well except 70s and before) to be particularly 'cartoony' as a whole, or at least more so than now. Also what's the difference between 'cartooniness' and 'idealization'? Wouldn't cartoony style have more idealization? I'm not sure I'm getting you here. |
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Draneor
Posts: 355 |
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It was the unintentional success of older works like Tsubasa that led to PoT being the way it was. It was a long process, I believe.
At least in terms of personality, you still find that type of character in current anime. But for every Akane (who is idealized in a way) there is a Kyoko (Maison Ikkoku) or KOR or Yawara.
As you know, manga (and many of the anime based upon them) from the big three are intended for teenagers to consume (average age of a SJ reader is 13). There are properties made for adults (Nodame or Saki, for example), but Kuroko's Basketball is not one of them. Honestly. This discussion reminds me of adults complaining about Harry Potter or Twilight (both of which are YA fiction, if attracting a sizable adult fanbase). Tastes change and we grow up. The past we remember is always better than it actual was. |
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Kikaioh
Posts: 1205 Location: Antarctica |
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I'll have to defer to your experience then, considering it's current and firsthand. It's not to say I didn't see young people when I last visited (at one time I was even on a train filled with them, when they were going on a class trip via the Shinkansen), but even then, those sorts of pop culture stylings didn't seem to be the 'norm' at the time. As for whether those styling references were equally saturated in older anime series, I'm still restrained to agree that that's the case. While it's very easy to spot in modern anime when characters are visually styled after the distinct/popular Johnnys or Morning Musume aesthetic, it's harder (for me at least) to broadly make that correlation in some of the more popular series in the past. Some of the styles seen in series like Dragon Ball or Tenchi are so outlandish that it's hard to say they were inspired by pop teenage fashion, and series like Ranma or Ushio & Tora seemed to feature characters with normal hair cuts (in the context of their art style, anyways).
It's certainly reassuring that I'm not the only one who seems to have noticed this trend in anime character stylings, so much thanks for throwing in your two cents on the issue. In the past it seemed to be more relegated to certain characters in a series, but nowadays it seems more and more the standard in character design, which (for me at least) is distracting/annoying.
Well, when I say cartoony, I suppose I mean the art-styles not only looked less realistic, but that the animations themselves were more prone to slapstick humor that could involve outlandish physical character deformation. Series in the vein of Dr. Slump, Slayers, Excel Saga, Elf Princess Rane, etc. often had outlandish physical deformations when the comedy or the emotion of the moment called for it, which seemed especially true for some of the zanier slapstick 90's comedy series (like Samurai Pizza Cats). Since fashionable/trendy stylings of the modern day are usually meant to invoke a sense of beauty or handsomeness, that can be somewhat undercut when the visual style leans more towards humor (which is likely why I can mostly overlook it in modern comedy series like Gin Tama). I may also imply cartoonier because Japan seemed to be much more a part of outsourced American cartoon productions of the 80's and early 90's than they are in the modern day --- Japanese animation studios like Toei and TMS were involved in animation production for shows like Inspector Gadget, Tiny Toon Adventures, Duck Tales, Rescue Rangers, Animaniacs, Strawberry Shortcake, Ninja Turtles, etc., and often in shows like Tiny Toon Adventures it was very visually obvious when the Japanese studios were involved (the animation and art style was a lot better). Some of that visual styling I think was also a reflection of the sort of animation stylings used in Japanese productions of the time.
I dunno, Tsubasa first came out in 1981, and Saint Seiya in 1986. Prince of Tennis, though, came out in 1999... it just seems like a fairly large gap of time. Perhaps it was a long process, that became greatly accelerated by the release of Prince of Tennis? It would be interesting to know how artists in the industry view that evolution. And are there really a lot of anime out today with tomboyish female leads in the vein of Akane, Asako Nakamura, A-ko, Rally Vincent, etc.? Certainly there does seem to be a certain level of "strong females" available in current anime, but it doesn't seem quite so often to see female leads with very tomboyish personalities (I'd be interested to know some examples, though). I think one of the appeals to some of the older works is that they may have been made for a younger audience, but they could still be appreciated by an adult audience. That's not to say it isn't still true for modern works (like Shonen Jump properties), but perhaps the seemingly higher saturation of teen fashion making its way into anime/manga properties is partially responsible for making it harder for me to bridge that gap. |
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faintsmile1992
Posts: 295 Location: England |
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shabaz92
Posts: 55 Location: MA |
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With regards to your other post several pages back about shows in the vein of Slayers, have you looked into the currently airing Ixion Saga DT? That sounds like it'd be right up your alley. Also what about Legend of the Legendery Heroes(I haven't seen this one so I can't vouch for it. But you might be interested). Last edited by shabaz92 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Draneor
Posts: 355 |
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I'll note it was not my intent to list every title that was popular with female readers over the entire history of SJ. However, you are correct it was a very long process as change often is. This four part series does a pretty good job of summarizing the early history. Unfortunately, the blogger stopped writing about it after Kenshin--but if you're interested, I could try to find some more links on female readers and SJ from the late 90s to present.
Certainly, you don't have to enjoy modern SJ titles. But, for your larger point, they are still appreciated by many adults. I think it's important to not project our experience as outsiders onto the intended audience. Mainstream anime continue to be popular with adults and children in Japan (and for otaku stuff--well, no one really watches it beyond otaku anyway and that has always been the case as far as I know). |
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faintsmile1992
Posts: 295 Location: England |
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People don't realise Buddhism was originally a warrior's religion in the first place, or at least that's how it came to prominence in many Asian countries. Besides Gautama Buddha born into a kshatriya family of a solar line (Suryavansha/Ikshvaku origin), though he dropped out of his hereditary social station but he still praised the kshatriya (the hereditary warriors) over the other castes including the brahmana (the priests) in the Ambatha Sutta. Not too long ago westerners were horrified that Buddhists were attacking Moslems in Burma, and expressing surprise that pacifistic Buddhists were being violent. Well it is not that Buddhism itself is pacifistic, it is only the silly image modern westerners have of Buddhist values, that is pacifistic because false cultural images are created to critique traditional western culture and religion as uniquely violent or hypocritical about their preaching peace whilst waging war. Last edited by faintsmile1992 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Anymouse
Posts: 685 |
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Excellent point. Buddhism is a real religion so it makes sense that it would behave as a real religion does. People get a false image of it. Partially that is the fault of modernist buddhists themselves, who were of course influenced by Western concepts of spirituality like Transcendentalism.
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Kikaioh
Posts: 1205 Location: Antarctica |
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I haven't seen any of Little Busters, but if Rin is anything like Aki from Robotics: Notes, I think your definition of 'tomboy' may be a bit ways more girly than mine. Which may be a sign of the times --- Japanese men seem to have embraced certain aspects of feminine culture a lot more in the past decade (the growing herbivore male culture may have something to do with that). Anyways, my understanding has always been that tomboys are traditionally considered girls that act masculine --- you know, shirking traditional girlish traits for a more masculine personality/lifestyle. I'm not sure if you've ever seen the examples I mentioned, but Makoto from Street Fighter IV is probably a simple modern example of what I mean. Ixion Saga DT was actually one of the few recent series that had caught my eye, largely for some of the more exaggerated scenes and comedy I'd seen in previews... unfortunately, I had lost interest when I found out it's based on an existing game, and more so knowing it's based off an MMORPG. I used to play Ragnarok Online in college, and I found it to be detrimentally time-consuming (which seemed purposeful in design), and is partially why I'm not keen on watching shows about them, coupled with the virtual settings taking away from my sense of immersion. But since you recommended it, I decided to give the first episode a try and see if I could look past the premise of the series. I did appreciate the quirkiness of the princess' guards, along with the fact that the main character is a lot gutsier than I would've expected (for an MMORPGer, I would have figured he'd have more the spine of a wet noodle when faced with potentially dangerous circumstances ). It wasn't entirely a positive experience, though --- I found the princess' character to be annoying (she comes across as tsundere otaku-bait), the handsome villain and his coterie initially turned me off, and the somewhat stylish main character seemed to over-idealize the type of people who play MMORPGs, the whole premise coming across as a sort of otaku fantasization of what it would be like to get sucked into the worlds they enjoy under a seemingly non-threatening context. That said, the comic elements did help me to look past some of those issues, and although it's not quite as zany and over-the-top as I'd hoped, the situational humor is still entertaining in its own light-hearted way --- so although there are a number of detracting elements that are a bit difficult for me to look past, your recommendation is at least somewhat closer to what I've been looking for than I would have originally given credit. I'm not sure if I'll continue with the series or not, but I may give it another episode or 2 to see how well it keeps up my interest. As for Legend of the Legendary Heroes, well, I'd seen the first episode a while ago, and I recall it coming across as underwhelming. The comic elements were too light to get any laughs out of me, I wasn't too big on some of the in-show RPG analytics, and I was annoyed by the handsome young king and his bishonen coterie. If I'm disappointed in a series' opening, I'll sometimes wait to see if fan feedback is substantial enough to warrant further viewing, but from what I'd heard it seems to have been something of a fizzler biting off more than it could chew.
That article was very interesting (I love reading about the history of manga and anime, so it was definitely up my alley) and it merged well with some of my own understanding of the growth of fujoshi/dojinshi culture over the 80's and 90's. Summarizing a bit from the article, it seems that a few of the lead characters in Tsubasa and almost all of the characters from Saint Seiya were gateways for fujoshi to start fantasizing about characters from Shonen Jump. Albeit, in the context of the article it seems as though those types of fujoshi-appealing Shonen Jump titles were much more the exception than the rule, but it does seem to be a concept that slowly worked its way into more series as the years went on. Yu Yu Hakusho being a lead up to Kenshin was an interesting connection --- I can certainly see how Hiei and Kurama would become fan-favorites in the fujoshi community. Kenshin also had a somewhat handsome cast of characters, and I can see how it might have been another step towards the largely bishonen cast featured in The Prince of Tennis. Also, I think I may have worded myself a bit awkwardly, and given you the impression that Shonen Jump titles don't appeal to adults. On the contrary, what I meant was that Shonen Jump titles are among the few on the market that I think are still capable of appealing to adult audiences despite their youth demographic. One Piece and Gin Tama in specific are titles I continue to enjoy to this day, and I think it's the humor, 'manly' values, and the fact it doesn't seem quite as mired in teen fashion and culture that helps to keep the shows more broadly appealing. |
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Draneor
Posts: 355 |
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I've read that up to 80% of undergraduate females in the US considered themselves tomboys growing up, which makes me wonder why we still have a word for what is majority behavior. Honestly, I think the concept is leftover from an age where gender roles and expectations were less fluid. Playing sports, wearing jeans, exploring the environment, etc are normally done by both genders these days. That is not to say there are not still gender expectations (there are and better minds than I have explored them), but not to the extent of say during the 1950s. Plus, I'm not quite sure how applicable the concept of "tomboy" is to Japan. Certainly, you will occasionally find females in anime that use masculine speech (or males who use feminine speech) or who act masculine (or males who act feminine). I'm sure there is a word (besides Bokukko) to describe them, but I'm not familiar with it. If you're looking for female leads who aren't traditionally female in the Japanese sense, there are plenty. But I'm not quite sure exactly what you're looking for.
I believe that's correct. As I mentioned previously, it took a long time for Shueisha to notice who was reading their titles and then start designing titles with their interests in mind. Clearly, not every title in SJ today is designed with both genders in mind, but they do now exist. Kuroko's Basketball is a perfect example. From the opposite perspective, if you attend cons, you will occasionally find presentations on the bishounenification of SJ (which, from the speakers perspective, is not a good thing since characters of the Fist of the North Star aesthetic are now less common in SJ titles). Obviously, I disagree, but they can be interesting presentations.
I think it's important to clarify what you mean by appealing to adult audiences and which type off anime you are referring to (mainstream or otaku). As far as otaku titles go, many are generally explicitly intended for adults. Saki or K-on! are perfect examples. On the other hand, many SJ titles--like One Piece- are largely read and enjoyed by teenagers (I'm an adult and I like One Piece, FTR). You mentioned Kuroko's Basketball specifically, so that's why I limited my discussion to SJ (or more mainstream) titles. |
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Kikaioh
Posts: 1205 Location: Antarctica |
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Ah yes, it's true that different people will have different perceptions on what a word like "tomboy" means. Even in Japan, with the changing relationship dynamics between men and women in the past decade (with the growth of herbivore males/carnivore females), the lines between gender groups does seem to be getting more blurry than in ages past. That said, from my vantage point it seems Japan still has certain distinguishing characteristics that separate the gender groups. Although there seems to be a very visible growing interest in Japanese men to focus more on personal attractiveness and grooming, I don't see the female demographic largely moving in a likewise fashion towards historically male characteristics (at least not from what I've heard, the most I'm aware of is that women have become more pro-active/aggressive as far as relationships). If I were to characterize female demographics in Japan, I would see women as largely enjoying: fashion, pretty men and cuteness --- while male demographics as being more into: action, sexy women and crassness. I suppose women who reflect more of the latter than the former give me a stronger perception of the traditional "tomboy", which is why I brought up Makoto from Street Fighter IV as an example. Makoto doesn't seem particularly interested in women's fashion or pretty men, and is almost entirely focused on karate (i.e. physical combat). She also speaks in a very rough-around-the-edges Tosa dialect, and unlike Sakura, she possesses almost no character traits that could be construed as "cute" in any sense of the word. Combined with all the previous features, it gives her a masculine demeanor that's not often seen in Japanese women, which comes across as very "tomboyish" in my mind and is the sort of standard I would go by in determining such. As far as a Japanese word for tomboy, I've heard "otenba" used in the past (though it seems to have a slightly different meaning than the english, more like a healthily active and mischievous girl, I'm not sure how much the masculinity plays into its meaning). Oftentimes in anime the characters I think of as being more tomboyish will be referred to as "ranbo", or rowdy/violent, though I believe it has a broader usage.
I have to admit that Shonen Jump's current lineup is surprisingly more abundant with fashionably handsome male protagonists than I'd noticed in the past. It's been a few years since I last attended a convention, and it's interesting to hear that this beautifying progression seems to be noted in some analytical circles.
Ah yes, you're very much so right on this, I had meant to use "adult" to refer to mainstream adult audiences. Although Kuroko's Basketball is part of the Shonen Jump lineup, there are still a number of Jump titles (like One Piece, Gin Tama, Toriko and Kochi Kame) that I think have appeal to mainstream adult audiences, was the gist of what I meant anyways. |
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faintsmile1992
Posts: 295 Location: England |
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Buddhist conclusions about morality are actually similar to Christian ones, its just their way of thinking about moral judgement's that's different. In places such as Sri Lanka and Thailand where Buddhism is the national religion, its naturally socially conservative and 'far right' and strict Buddhists would accuse many western Buddhists of not being Buddhists at all. |
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YotaruVegeta
Posts: 1061 Location: New York |
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You sure the offensive disclamer wasn't mistakenly placed in the second question, instead of the first?
That third "question" sounded more like an angry person letting off some steam about "those darn kids." |
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