Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2007-03-16]
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TheVok
Posts: 613 Location: North York, Ontario, Canada |
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That's not the only difference at all. The original script is written in Japanese, which gives the Japanese VAs a huge head start on their English-speaking counterparts, who instead have to deal with an inherently awkward translation (i.e. convey the same ideas, using similar lip movements, even though the languages are completely different!) .... Also, the Japanese VAs actually work with the people who wrote, directed and produced the movie or TV show they're voicing, so they gain direct insight into what is intended to be conveyed. The English-speaking VAs don't get to work with any of the creative forces at all; instead, they work with a company that has licensed international rights. It's like working with the distributor of a product rather than the manufacturer. Don't get me wrong, there are tonnes of lame Japanese VA performances (although they at least have the creators' stamp of approval, for what that's worth). But there are also lots of good ones, so why omit them by dubbing over them? Subtitles cause a lot less interference with the original production and what its creators want to convey. |
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The Xenos
 Posts: 1519 Location: Boston |
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First, about that yaoi fangirl. Damn. Stop it. She is not well. She needs to seek help with her obsession/fetish. Homosexuals are not pets. Go buy a puppy if you want something to squee at. Grow the &*$# up. Also, does she only suqee at the pretty boy gay guys or does she think the hairy fat gay guys are 'So kawaii!' too (or some such pseudo-Japanese)?
As for dubs, what a crock of *#$%. This is another sub fan talking out of their butt. I love how he sets it up saying he's not attacking dubs... and then his rant is about attacking dubs. Of course the biggest joke is that he and others referes to the Japanese dub as the sub. No. That's a dub too. The Japanese dub. The subtitles are a separate issue. If you really want to watch it 'like the Japanese do', you wouldn't be watching any English subtitles. So until you can understand the language like native Japanese speakers, you cannot honestly compare the Japanese and American dubs. By its very nature, the Japanese dub with subtitles cannot give you the 'true experience' these people are always talking about. Japanese people watch anime dubbed. Why shouldn't I watch it the same way? Sure it has to be redubbed for me to understand it the same way, but it's still dubbed just like how the Japanese watch it. I can't stand how so many anime fans just ignore this basic aspect of watching anime. Hell, it's not even like they dub it before they animate it. It's almost a no win situation. You're never going to watch it "like the Japanese" unless you natively speak the language. People just can't accept that. I'm surprised this guy didn't bring up the argument about reading is better for your brain. Hell, I don't want to read anime. If I wanted to read the story, I'd buy the manga. That reminds me how I am waiting for the dub of the Deathnote anime to watch it. I already read the dialouge driven Deathnote as a manga. Why do I want to read the dialouge for the anime?
Too true. The Japanese dub actually has British accents. Too bad hadly any anime fans watching it are that fluent in Japanese to pick it up. To really get the dialouge and accents, you need to watch the American dub. 'Arudado'? Dammit! It's Alucard, you weeaboo twit! ALUCARD! Dracula backwards! ZOMG Spoilers a second grader could see coming! |
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SnowStar_7*
 Posts: 87 |
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'Tis true. Everytime I write about this I am inclined to not want to say "sub" when referring to the Japanese dubbing. Yet, I end up saying sub since afterall that is the popular way it is referred to. It is incorrect though and writing it that way just promotes it, but it's how most people refer to it. It's like what you mentioned about "Arucard", not in that case I'm sure, but there are incorrect romanisations of foreign names in anime out there that people just say "well hey the Japanese put it that way" and do not try to find the actual correct way of writing it. You end up with tons of people writing it that way so it, becomes the norm. That's how something like calling the Japanese dub "sub" comes about. |
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JKNGP
Company Representative
Posts: 11 |
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Hi folks,
My name is Jonathan Klein, and some of you might know me, others may not. For those who don't, I co-own a little company called New Generation Pictures which produces dubs & subs of anime releases. If you want to know more about my company and what we've done, just look up me or my company on the ANN encyclopedia. This is my first post here on ANN, and I'm not expecting everybody to blow sunshine up my arse simply for being here. I've read the discussions here on ANN and found many of them be quite intelligent discourse. I've also read tons or pro and anti-dub debates and have heard everything, from the very poignant argument to the incredibly inexplicable rant. I found this person's rant on Answerman to fall into the later category. And IMHO, despite his/her protest to the contrary, it was clearly is sub vs. dub rant. So why am I here now? I am not here to change anybody's opinion. If you like listening to the original Japanese, great, please keep on listening. If you like dubs, that's also great. I only hope that you might have the courtesy to at least pick up the legit R-1 or R-2 DVD release to at least show your support for the anime industry. While I will try to visit the ANN forums from time to time, I can't guarantee that I will be able to read or reply to anybody or everybody's posts directed to me. I ask for your forgiveness in advance. Why I am here posting now is to help dispel some myths that people think about voice acting, including this week's ranter. 1) Voice acting is not a universal constant: I really wish this week's ranter had actually given examples of what he/she thinks is bad. Rather than use a blanket statement of all English voice acting is bad. There is good acting and bad acting in both English and Japanese, and not everybody who voice acts in Japanese is good, not everybody who voice acts in English is bad. Simply because many of you who watch anime don't understand the Japanese language, your brain can interpolate the voice you hear with the subtitles you read and create a performance in your head that could rival Sir Lawrence Olivier. Yes I know many of you understand several phrases in Japanese, but that's not the same as knowing a language fluently. I studied Japanese for several years, lived in Japan and I still dare not say I am fluent in the language. Voice acting, unlike stage or screen acting, is about creating subtleties in the voice to deliver a performance. The non-fluent anime watcher might counter that they can understand "happiness" or "sadness" in a Japanese voice, so they can read a performance. But a performance is not simply made of expressive emotions. What about the other 20 minutes of dialogue in the episode where all the exposition comes in, you know, like the parts where the villain explains his/her evil plan and the hero responds by simply re-iterating what the villain said. If that were done verbatim in English, some would probably say it's laughable. But read it in a subtitle and suddenly some people think it's brillant. This is the trap that English voice actors and directors work hard to avoid. To create a performance that is true to the original Japanese, but believable from an interpretation in English. It's not an exact science and it's not a perfect one, but when it does work, you can even get some moments of brilliance in acting, even for Anime. 2) Most Japanese Seiyuu are not revered celebrities in Japan and not all American Celebrity-actors who happen to voice act in anime are not always brilliant voice actors. If you spend your time in Japan hanging out in anime stores like Animate and Mandarake, you might think that Seiyuu are all worshipped as gods in Japan with posters of them for sale and music CD's they release that can easily be purchased. Step outside the anime store and ask your average person in Tokyo who most of these seiyuu are and they will probably give you a blank stare. Many seiyuu are professional "voice-actors", but don't have the chops or good fortune to make the transition to stage and screen acting in Japan. The truth is voice acting in Japan is a very low paying industry, except for the few upper echelon voice actors (including fan-favorites Takehito Koyasu and Megumi Hayashibara) who can demand a high salary, the average Japanese seiyuu gets about $100 per episode. Many seiyuu release posters, CD's and other items that have their face or voice on it simply as a means of making extra income to supplement their voice acting career. On the other hand, some fans here on the forums think that English voice acting will somehow increase in quality ten-fold or more, if film & tv actors dubbed all the anime released in America into English. Working in Los Angeles allows me the opportunity to work some actors from film & TV who are also celebrities. Believe it or not, there are a contingent of film/tv actors who are huge anime fans and have even asked me if they could do a little voice acting in some of my anime shows simply for the love of it (often uncredited). I can't say who they are but I've had Academy award and Emmy award nominated and winning actors in the recording booth and I can say one thing for sure; not every great actor can be a great voice actor. Acting for film & TV is a completely different animal than voice acting. And dubbing for anime can be even more difficult since film & TV actors are accustomed to using their entire body to deliver their performance. When you confine these actors to simply using their voice to deliver a performance, it's like tying them up by their hands and feet and telling them to act. They can't. They just freeze up in the booth, because the performance they give with their body can't be interpreted into the microphone. And for our ranter who thinks all the "Books on Tape" people should all become voice actors, I say the same thing, not everybody who has a great reading or announcing voice, can be a great voice actor. I've had some great sounding voices in the booth, the ones they sometimes use for "books on tape" and they sound like announcers, without able to give me any sort of emotive performance at all. On the other hand many of my voice actors have done "books on tape". Does that automatically make them a better voice actor? Certainly not. 3) American voice actors do care about the parts they play and are not simply doing it for the paycheck. I can't speak for every anime voice actor out there, but the ones I have worked with care deeply about giving the best performance they can when they play a role in anime. Much like their Japanese seiyuu counterparts, the salaries are not huge and the work is not always constant enough to make a living by voice acting alone. But these people chose to be actors and for them voice acting is part of the craft which they enjoy. I do have some voice actors who have gone on to make a successful career on TV and film, but they do come back to work for me simply because they love doing it. And for those who say that "Seiyuu went to school to study voice acting" should also remember that many voice actors also studied acting as well. Simply because they didn't limit their studies to voice acting alone does not make them less of a voice actor. And there is no sin in making money doing what you enjoy. The Japanese seiyuu don't do it for free either. Do the actors all get to see and research their parts long before they go into the recording booth? Unfortunately no, but it's my job as a voice director to make sure the actor does understand the role they're playing and the story they're involved in and play the character in a way we both feel best suits the role. I usually don't like my actors watching fansubs ahead of time (not because I think fansubs are bad-which I do-although that is a separate issue) but because I don't want my actors to be influenced too much by the original Japanese performance. Each voice actor has to make an acting performance their own, not an imitation of somebody else. After all, it's called "voice acting" not "voice imitating". If I have an actor who isn't taking the job seriously and giving me their all in the booth, then they won't be working for me long. I am sure there are more myths I can dispel about dubbing, but I think this rant is already too long-winded as it is. So for now I'll stop here. I thank you for reading this and leave everybody to their own individual opinions about dubs vs. subs. To me the point is that you're all enjoying anime in one form or another and as long as you're supporting it legally, that is good enough for me. Regards, Jonathan Klein Vice President New Generation Pictures, Inc. Last edited by JKNGP on Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mephistophilus
 Posts: 200 Location: Fresno, CA, United States |
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Though I don't know if the slightly... Confrontational and condescending attitude was necessary... I do agree somewhat with what you're saying. For the first part, I do agree that we can't judge Japanese voice actors/actresses or experience it "like the Japanese" unless we know the language. However, there are times when you can compare the English dub and the Japanese dub with at least some semblance of accuracy and decide which is "better." By deciding which is better I'm generally saying which doesn't suck, which in some cases can be the English dub. I'm not a sub fanboy, but I do like watching the Japanese dub with English subtitles (which is what it should be called in all honesty... Never mind the fact that this is annoyingly long to type and that I normally call it a "sub" because it's shorter and we all know what I'm talking about) at times, sometimes due to the annoying qualities of the VAs, sometimes due to some inane reason that I don't exactly need to explain. I don't try to force my opinion on others, and I don't think I'm viewing it "the way Japanese view it." I'm an English speaking American watching a subtitled Japanese dub because I like it that way sometimes. I may be missing a few things sometimes, but that doesn't bother me if the English dub bothered me enough to make me watch the Japanese dub with English subtitles. I don't mind reading, either, even if it's while viewing a medium not normally associated with reading. Thus, if I wasn't enjoying the English dub, it's not a "no-win situation." On the second part, though, I will give you that. It's always interesting to note the difference between certain accents and dialects in the speaking of a certain type of language. For instance, the translation of an Osakan accent oftentimes ends up being a sort of southern accent, and there is of course the whole British vs. American vs. Australian vs. Canadian vs. (all the other regions and countries that speak English, a notably interesting one being the Barbadian accent of English-Gotta love that colonization) dialect and accent difference even just in English. You simply can't understand a lot of accents unless you know the language in question in the first place. This is especially true with Japanese, as nuances are far more obscured than in the finicky English language. Some accents are easily discernible, such as the "staple" American southern accent and the obvious British (English) accent, and some are quite difficult to determine, such as some dialects and accents of Spanish and Japanese, unless you know the language. I know I'll miss the accent if there is one should I watch the Japanese dub over the English dub. This is an issue I take into consideration and is one that many people deciding should, but if I watch the Japanese dub regardless of these types of issues I probably didn't care if the accent was present anyway, as I probably would have already decided I couldn't stand the English dub. So, to put it simply, on the whole dub issue, I think it should really go down to a quick listen of each and a decision of whether or not you will ENJOY the English dub. If you won't, there's no point in watching it anyway. If you will, then you might want to give it a chance, and you'll probably watch it in that way. Don't be closed minded about the choice between a subbed version and an English dubbed version either way. Don't assume the English dub will automatically work better, as you may be disappointed. Likewise, don't assume the Japanese dub will be better, as you may be missing out. This is if you are really open-minded, however, and a lot of people just take the decision down to a personal choice that they don't need to explain. To put it even simpler, as my "simply put" description went far too long, make a choice that lets you enjoy the anime, and leave it at that. On the fangirl again, I have to wonder what she expected as well of gays in that sense. Many gay men try to be as masculine as possible, and I have to wonder if she expected her "real-life yaoi men" to be fantastic bishounen akin to delicate flowers. EDIT:
You might want to avoid any DBZ threads then. I heard they have to use sunshine as an all-purpose enema every two days, lest the threads fall inactive for three weeks of constipat-... Err, "power-ups." You didn't think Solar Flare was actually used to blind people, did you? (sorry, couldn't resist the edit) |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Its nice to see that there are still at least some moderate and resonable people on the internet.
There is not clear awnser to Subs vs Dubs. There are advantages and Disadvantages to both. Subs are often of a somewhat higher quality. However, due to the lanuage issue, we can not as easilly coprehend the various aspects. Dubs are sometimes not as well done but you get the fundamental advantages of watching in your native language. I dont really buy the whole Subs are closer to the original arguement. In many cases, a reworked Dub can actually be closer in overall message or feeling, than a literally translated Sub. It varies by series ofcourse too. Some Dubs are very poorly done in which case watch the Sub. If The Dub is well done though I personally prefer it. Again though thats just preference. Some people may prefer Subs a higher percent of the time. Either way, its up to them. The only people I have problems with are people who completely refuse to watch Dubs or claim stupid reasons like "I watch subs cause I wanna watch it how the Japanese watch it." I suppose I also have problems with people who refuse to watch Subs, but then I've never actually met a dedicated fan who held this view. |
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10円
Posts: 605 |
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Thank you for posting. I really appreciate seeing people from the industry come on here and stick their necks out to give us a view from their side of the equation. Even though I've slowly become a serious sub fan and I no longer enjoy most dubs it's still nice to see what the people who make them have to say about the process and the result. I hope you'll continue to give us your view of the picture and help dispel some of the common myths that have become so prevalent here and elsewhere. |
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Kenotic
 Posts: 167 |
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JKNGP,
Thank you, thank you for that post. I really think a bit of reality is needed when talking about this little controversary. I also appreicate the insight about the industry from your angle. While I have assumed there are people like Mel Blanc and June Foray overseas in terms of talent and fame, this whole "they're total Hollywood celebs" thing just never seemed accurate. I'm a fan voice acting in general (any country, any language, even if I know English-speaking ones far better), so I'll give any of them a red-carpet treatment. One thing somewhat related, but it's about the "Reading" vs. "acting" thing. I work in radio, and have voiced numerous ads (nothing you've likely heard) and helped produce many more. The people I work with have voices that a lot of people would die for. Their ability to ad lib and read long news stories is nothing short of astounding. However, when they try to "act" in some ads or spots on the radio, the results vary from "pretty good" to "ouch!" It's why you usually never hear or see Paul Harvey or Katie Couric acting: it's not their thing. |
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Mephistophilus
Posts: 200 Location: Fresno, CA, United States |
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Though I should have said this earlier, I do thank you for your input JKNGP, as it is always nice to see a person that is actually informed in the business giving us the 411 on things. The dubs your company has done have been quite good, and it's nice to hear and see that the industry really cares. Not that I had any doubts, anyway.
And in the case of Hollywood actors doing dubs... I think we can look at the Afro Samurai dub for proof of that. I suppose it wasn't totally his fault, but I really didn't feel Jackson in AS, despite my expectations (silly me, right?). Though I thought SLJ would be quite emotive due to his... Eccentric actions, I now realize that normal acting and voice acting are two totally different beasts. Trying to convey with only words what you can normally do with your body is indeed difficult, and even those paid millions to act can't always do it. |
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DKL
 Posts: 1945 Location: California, USA |
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Woah... now THIS I didn't know. ... That's one hell of a tidbit, man. So yeah... I promise to pick up Ergo Proxy sooner or later (hahaha). |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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On the religion issue- I recall one of those inside-the-newspaper-front-page things about some guy starting a Church of Sponge Bob (& I've called Sponge Bob the aniti-Christ for ages mostly because I find his voice the equivelent of nails on a chalkboard). And if Ozzy can feel "Rock 'n'Roll is my religion & my law"-hey, whatever, right? I remember the rush of books promoting "The Force" as a religion after Star Wars came out.
The fangirl is insane. My 6th grade teacher taught us one's right to swing one's arms ends at one's neighbor's right not to be hit ny one's flailing arms. Doesn't matter how bubbly exuberant you may feel-the recipient may not feel the same. Respect everyone's rights. Thank you for posting, Mr. Klein. I saw a director commentary on a CPM DVD where the statement was made they'd do a casting call of say 100 people & count themselves lucky to get 3 they could use because anime dubbing is a different art entirely from stage & screen acting. Sub maniacs-admit it. The Japanese VA's often could care less about lipflaps. I've seen Tessho Genda start well after his character did & fiinish well after. There's one scene in Tekkeman Blade where the character was going on for a good 10 seconds before the VA kicked in. And in the commentary the male lead in World of Narue teased the female lead over her regularly getting so involved in watching the screen, she was regularly late starting her lines. Realistically if you think all of the Japanese dubs are better, you are wrong. Same for if you think all dubs are better. I liked the Beatles when I was 12 & I knew full well some songs were great & others were filler, written as the band themselves said to pay for a new car or put in a swimming pool. 3 yrs later I backed off because I realized everything was becoming "gold--I was losing my objectivity. Same concept for dubs. There are going to be good & bad on both sides of the ocean, but if you can't see that, you have no objectivity in the matter. There are Japanese casts full of vets & cast made up of total newbs. Don't know about you, but the more newbs used suggests to me they're trying to save a buck And I daresay if you feel 90% of one or the other is horrid, you also are more than a tad biased. |
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Yoda117
Posts: 406 |
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Actually the actress who played Seras Victoria is not British, despite popular belief. She is however, a highly trained character actress. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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(jkg) And in other news: About Big Hollywood stars doing anime dubs badly look no further than Kiefer Sutherland's effort, (or rather lack of) in "Armitage III, Polymatrix". Easy money for him. |
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Steroid
 Posts: 329 Location: At home, where all good hikikomori should be |
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But at least in this case, perception is reality. A performance can be brilliant, but if I don't perceive it as brilliant, it doesn't matter. It's akin to a writer who has brilliant turns of phrase and uses the language well, but has no story or interesting characters. The point JKNGP makes about viewer interpretation creating brilliance is well-founded, but what I see as its implications are not the same. The viewer should use his own interpretation to boost a performance in his own view. And dubs make that all the more difficult. Watching anime, for me, shouldn't be easy. At least, not in the sense of understanding the dialogue. I do like its themes to be easy to accept and its characters easy to relate to.
True enough, but at least they have the CDs and posters. And if they are saleable, it means they have a fandom large enough to be a market. Do American VAs have them? Maybe a few, but I don't follow them. Certainly none to the Hayashibura level. It goes back to the idea that the Japanese anime industry engenders that sort of fandom for its people, but the American anime industry doesn't.
That may be true, but it doesn't mean that film actors can't be good VAs. It is generally the case that the A-list stars don't do well as VAs (although there's a small sample size), but I've heard great cartoon voice work from character actors like Roddy McDowall, Ed Asner, James Earl Jones, people who can't necessarily open a movie, but who can act. Moreover, there are several career voice actors for American cartoons, but little crossover with the ones who do anime voices. Dubbing quality might increase if those talent pools were tapped.
And therein lies the crux of my dislike of dubbing as it's currently done. The entire American anime industry should not, in my opinion, have an ounce of creativity in it. It should be only a conduit through which the Japanese creativity flows to the fan. And that's why I don't support the industry and why I lobby to have it alter its direction to one I would support. |
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indrik
 Posts: 365 Location: yonder |
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I thought he was just fine. C+ work all the way. Elizabeth Berkley, on the other hand, was catastrophic. But approximately as annoying as the original Japanese actress, when I finally got a copy of the subbed version. Either voice could have ruined the show for me. So maybe that's a fine example of a lack of creativity tunneling mediocrity directly to the American fan? I don't know. Oops, strawman, sorry about that. |
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