Forum - View topicSword Art Online II (TV).
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Bugnin
Posts: 575 |
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Oh, this wasn't on accident. As I said when I started this line of dialogue, at the heart of this arc is PTSD. I wish the parts in the LN that made this more clear didn't get cut out, but alas I think they were hoping we'd just connect the dots. I thought it was pretty clear. LNspoiler[In the LN, Sinon recalls being specifically diagnosed with PTSD during the robbery incident, and does see therapists, but when that doesn't work she tries to self-medicate through GGO] |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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http://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/PTSD-overview/dsm5_criteria_ptsd.asp |
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Bugnin
Posts: 575 |
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http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/post-traumatic-stress-disorder/basics/symptoms/con-20022540
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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That's not nearly as silly as your tone suggests you think it is. It's actually a pretty standard treatment: you expose the patient to their fear in a safe and controlled environment so they'll eventually get used to it.
Those aren't 'other symptoms,' those are the symptoms. If patients meet that criteria, then they have the disorder. Let's break it down, shall we?
Shino and Kirito both would be direct exposure, since they actively killed people.
Both of them definitely fit #5. Shino can't handle anything gun shaped and Kirito is visably shaken whenever Death Gun is around.
This one might be a bit iffy (it's where professional experience and opinion comes into play). Shino probably did avoid guns entirely at first, but currently she does try to expose herself. You might also say Kirito's forgetting was his way of avoiding it.
1-3 for Kirito. 2, 4, 6, and possibly 7 for Shino.
Hm, I'm drawing a blank on this one right now. I think maybe some apply but my mind's not in the state to recall specific examples
Shino's been dealing with it for years, though Kirito only just remembered his trauma, so we'd have to see for how long it persists.
Shino definitely, Kirito not so much.
So far as we know they're both clean and in good health.
Don't think this applies. In Kirito's case it felt far too real for him despite the circumstances.
This would apply to Kirito. Barring clarification on Criterion E, we can say that Shino has PTSD, while Kirito comes pretty close to having PTSD with delayed expression. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter
Posts: 23792 |
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Oh, you're an expert in the treatment of PTSD, are you? I've heard of using simple behavioural modification therapy to deal with certain kinds of phobias: i.e. you gradually expose an arachnophobe to a picture of spider, then you bring in a live spider and let him/her look at it and eventually you work up to the point where the person actually holds a spider, etc. I've never heard of this technique being used to deal with PTSD. In fact, we had a real life example not too long ago that pretty emphatically showed this isn't the greatest idea. Remember that American Sniper dude who tried to help other combat veterans who suffered from PTSD by taking them to a firing range and shooting weapons? One of those guys turned the weapon on him and a friend who was there. So yeah, Shinon's approach is very simplistic but she's a teenager so I'm not exactly expecting massive amounts of sophistication from her in dealing with her problem. |
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HaruhiToy
Posts: 4118 |
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Not to put too fine a point on it but the story is consistent. There is no reason to assume that Shinon is an expert in treating her own malady, or even for that matter even knows what it is. I can't speak for much about a clinically recognized condition such as PTSD, but I do have some practical experience (due to my hobby) about dealing with fear. And the exposure she is giving herself is not a bad first step in dealing with Shinon's fear. As for Kirito, the discussion seems to assume that he has PTSD and that is his problem and nothing else. I see it as more likely that he is suffering from both guilt and fear and not PTSD at all. At least as much as PTSD has been described in lay media. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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That's not exactly what I'd call a 'safe and controlled environment.' |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter
Posts: 23792 |
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That's hardly the point. The point is that I don't believe simple behavior modification therapy is used in the treatment of PTSD and that's basically what Shinon is attempting to do for herself by participating in GGO.
I doubt you'd find a reputable therapist say to a combat veteran suffering PTSD, "Hey go play tons of Call of Duty! That'll really help you."
To me, you are making the same mistake Vaisaga is making. You seem to be equating a complex disorder like PTSD with a (relatively) more simple phobia. Of course fear is a component of PTSD but there is a world of difference between somebody who has been so traumatized by an event that they suffer a range of debilitating behaviours and somebody who is deathly afraid of enclosed spaces, for example. A non-simplistic approach on Shinon's part would have been to approach a teacher, guidance counselor or some other adult figure, explain her problem and ask advice on how to deal with her issue. Going, "hmm, I had this horrible event that causes me to become paralyzed if anyone so much as makes a finger gun at me, so I'll cure it myself by playing a gun-based video game" is a very simplistic approach to a thorny problem. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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There's no single sure fire method of dealing with it (if there was it wouldn't be such a problem). Perhaps Shino's approach is simplistic, but the basic idea isn't a bad one.
Of course one of the big issue with dealing with these disorders is that a lot of people simply don't seek treatment for them. They either don't realize they have a problem, don't want to admit they have a problem, assume it'll pass on its own, think that they can handle it, can't afford treatment or feel that seeking help is shameful and a sign of weakness. I doubt Shino would be able to do what you suggest, especially when it means admitting she's killed some one. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter
Posts: 23792 |
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The question of whether Shinon could or could not follow an non-simplistic approach is irrelevant to the point at hand. Some people are claiming that the show is handling the issue of PTSD in a "mature" manner and I think that notion is patently ridiculous. The idea that a fun, escapist show would take a "mature" approach to PTSD is just silly. Again, that is no knock against SAO II. That simply shows the writers know what kind of show they are doing and they are not going to weigh it down with the sort of treatment PTSD would get in a literary novel or serious film, for example.
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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To say it's not being treated 'maturely' means it's being treated 'immaturely,' which to me would mean making it a joke and undermining the seriousness of the issue. But it is being treated quite seriously. Perhaps it's not entirely accurate or realistic, but I think we can give it mature.
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Bugnin
Posts: 575 |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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No, let's not. You're not a psychiatrist. You're a random dude on the internet that uses info you just found in a webpage to prove a point, because you have nothing better to do. We may act like professors for e-peen, but this is crossing the line imo. The only reason I posted that link is to show that diagnosing PTSD necessarily involves having a bunch of symptoms as a refutation of the above quote. I might have shown some frustrations about how SAO is handling things in the heat of the debate, but to be honest I don't have enough problem with it to stop watching. The one significant quarrel I have here is about the idea that PTSD is maturely handled. For me mature means that the author is interested in an accurate and realistic portrayal whether they mean to educate people or simply make the character more tragic or relatable (unless it comes across as very manipulative). If the author is not, but refers to the issue directly, then he/she is undermining it even if a little. If there is no reference, then it is okay as far as I'm concerned, but saying that they're handling it maturely doesn't make sense. They might be handling the story or characters maturely, but not PTSD, just some PTSD-like effects. Personally I think this has run its course if it didn't two pages ago so I'm signing off. Have to build up energy for the shitstorm that's going to be F/SN thread. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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I think that psychology degree on my wall elevates me above "random dude" level at the very least. It's not like we're dealing with real people who could potentially be damaged from amateur diagnoses anyways. |
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Bugnin
Posts: 575 |
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The mic has been officially dropped. |
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