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Last edited by NeverConvex on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

WeNTuS wrote:

Well, Subaru is getting help because of agreement with Crucsh and his new hero status helped with that too. It's not like these people randomly decide to join him.

Sure, but the criticism (or at least the one I'm levying; I don't want to speak for Key) is not that their joining him is implausible; it's that the fashion in which they joined him (meaning the effusive language they used & the more-or-less complete lack of coaxing on his part required to suddenly have half the troop excitedly volunteer their service, and this during what should have been a somber point in the episode) is implausible. (edit: Re-watching it now to see if I'm misremembering anything, and realizing the ridiculous conversation between Rem and Subaru took place in the latter half of the episode too. That conversation was absurdly overwrought, oy.)

@Pierrot
Yeah, I sort of figured that was what he actually meant, but my larger point is that without a firsthand source to draw from, I can only rely on the anime's choppy flashback version which is...flawed, to put it nicely. ^^;

I would like to see this show as a whole get dubbed or even re-subtitled in an official release just to see if my impression changes with greater clarity and understanding. But thanks for clearing that up for me.

Gina Szanboti wrote:

I wonder what they plan to do with that carcass. Is White Whale edible?

Kind've sounded like they were going to put it on display for starters. Was rewatching the last few minutes of the episode to see if I'm misremembering or misstating any of the ideas in my criticism above, and it reminded me that Crusch says they're going to drag the whale corpse back to the capitol.

Last edited by Gina Szanboti on Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

Key wrote:

Gina Szanboti wrote:

I wonder what they plan to do with that carcass. Is White Whale edible?

I had this thought myself. Gonna stink up that part of the road for ages to come. . .

No, they're hauling it back to the capital - or at least the front half, so I imagine they'll be sending someone to retrieve the remainder later, which is why I was wondering (partly in jest). Do you have to boil the meat extra long before you eat it to get rid of that demonic bitterness? Will the moderate aging at ambient temp on the journey back improve its umami? Can they make metia from its bones? Aphrodisiacs from its horn? Inquiring minds...

Silver4000 wrote:

And given that sometimes some light novel adaptation use some content from the extra volumes (just like in SAO) I'm guessing that the flashbacks were taken from the EX volume, instead of the main volume.

The flashback is actually part of the main volume.

The Ex Novel simply expands on the entire background behind these bits of flashbacks, gives them a proper context and dives into this whole matter with a greater detail.

So yeah both Ex Novel and main volume go hand in hand and should be consumed both at the same time.

NeverConvex wrote:

Sure, but the criticism (or at least the one I'm levying; I don't want to speak for Key) is not that their joining him is implausible; it's that the fashion in which they joined him (meaning the effusive language they used & the more-or-less complete lack of coaxing on his part required to suddenly have half the troop excitedly volunteer their service, and this during what should have been a somber point in the episode) is implausible. (edit: Re-watching it now to see if I'm misremembering anything, and realizing the ridiculous conversation between Rem and Subaru took place in the latter half of the episode too. That conversation was absurdly overwrought, oy.)

I don't get why this is an issue for several people. The show spent a pretty good chunk of time on the FRONT end (previous episodes) showing that a good number of the people in the assault force have quite literally dedicated their LIVES to this particular end, and were willing to bow to Subaru for "ONLY" telling them where to find the whale. Sure, Subaru HIMSELF didn't care much aside from as a means to an end, but many other people knowingly (or maybe even UNKNOWINGLY) lost family and friends to the thing and were full of gratitude simply because Subaru could help them definitively FIND it. When he goes a step further and leads the charge against what (at that point) seemed a pretty much unbeatable foe and then did what was a SUICIDAL attack when all but Crusch were ready to give into despair, I don't think anyone would be out of character to be incredibly effusive with praise to that person.

I think its people taking the "filler" concept and ascribing it also to the other characters. For Subaru, this really was a "side quest", possibly even not as "dangerous" or "important" since he'll reset. But for everyone else, this was the culmination of a LIFE goal.

HeeroTX wrote:

Sure, Subaru HIMSELF didn't care much aside from as a means to an end, but many other people knowingly (or maybe even UNKNOWINGLY) lost family and friends to the thing and were full of gratitude simply because Subaru could help them definitively FIND it. When he goes a step further and leads the charge against what (at that point) seemed a pretty much unbeatable foe and then did what was a SUICIDAL attack when all but Crusch were ready to give into despair, I don't think anyone would be out of character to be incredibly effusive with praise to that person.

I can't speak to NeverConvex's reasons, but for me, I was expecting more of a slap on the back, "good job on not dying, you crazy kid, you" kind of attitude. Not the "You are definitely a hero, and here, take half my army to boot" we got. I could understand sparing 20 dudes if you had a full army, but to give away half your forces is a bit much. I mean, yeah, Subaru's plan ultimately won them the day, but he himself admitted that it was a gamble--and I'd say hoping to land on an airborne monster via flying missiles, not to mention dropping a giant tree on the thing, definitely qualifies as a last stand, high-risk strategy. If nothing else, I feel like Prof. McGonagall's reaction would've fit better: "Five points to Gryffindor--for sheer dumb luck!"

whiskeyii wrote:

I mean, yeah, Subaru's plan ultimately won them the day, but he himself admitted that it was a gamble--and I'd say hoping to land on an airborne monster via flying missiles, not to mention dropping a giant tree on the thing, definitely qualifies as a last stand, high-risk strategy.

True, but Crusch herself orders the charge and when NO ONE follows the order, she looks back and her forces were COMPLETELY demoralized. She had men who (again) had dedicated their LIVES to this mission that were for all intents and purposes ready to curl up and die. In that scenario, a long shot is better than no shot, and from what we're given, she (nor anyone else) didn't have a BETTER idea.

And also, from what we were given, every single person in that attack force that was still alive, would have had a valid reason to feel that they owed their own lives (as well as their mission) to Subaru. Because if he hadn't rallied the forces, there is no real reason to think any of them survive that assault. (aside from possibly due to "sheer dumb luck")

HeeroTX wrote:

I don't get why this is an issue for several people. The show spent a pretty good chunk of time on the FRONT end (previous episodes) showing that a good number of the people in the assault force have quite literally dedicated their LIVES to this particular end...

The only person to join Subaru for whom the show previously established a lifelong commitment to whale-slaying was Wilhelm, near as I could tell (there were clearly others with similar commitment in the previous crowd when they were marshaling their forces, but of those only Wilhelm seemed to act of his own accord to volunteer continued service to Subaru), but I agree that for him the overblown language and his devotion to Subaru on overhearing Subaru's conversation with Crusch were completely natural. However, the other new party members were either quickly offered to him by an uncharacteristically gushing, aggressively accommodating Crusch (who we've known to be righteous and upstanding but also calculating and ambitious, not casually giving of her mens' lives or of power to her competition) or were randomly urged off-screen by the merchant/mercenary-squad priestess-leader to join Subaru for the follow-up Beetlgeuse-slayin' quest, which they learned about only indirectly (or so we're told: "don't underestimate the merchant's network," or some such). While Wilhem's reaction seemed believable (although emotionally undercut by the hurried, flashback-heavy telling of his backstory), Crusch's behavior and language seemed out of place to me, and the merchant network's completely unprompted proffering of force was especially jarring in its narrative convenience. (Also, a minor quibble: I don't think I'd describe anyone as 'bow'ing to Subaru for offering them information on the whale's location; that, together with the magic stones mining rights, was just enough for him to strike a tentative alliance.)

My comments above about this feeling "secondary" are orthogonal to this argument, in my view; that was more about the viewer's emotional engagement and experience than about the secondary characters' investment. I don't doubt Crusch and the merchant soldiers' changed behavior and language because this seemed like an unimportant victory in their eyes; I'm sure it was important to all of them for different reasons (obsession and vengeance for Wilhelm and those like him, ambition and righteous justice for Crusch, simply surviving and winning a desperate, hopeless battle for the common soldiers, etc). I doubt it because I don't think even a tremendous military victory, even if it gives them newfound respect for Subaru, would likely alter their interactions with him so fundamentally that they'd fall over themselves to happily throw more valuable troops and loyal supporters after him without a moment's hesitation. I would have 'bought' this scene a lot more fully if Subaru had been forced to do at least some insistent nudging, explicitly bringing up his need for more troops, reminding Crusch and the merchants' of their alliance, etc.

As a side note/question: during the initial negotiations, did Subaru specifically mention pursuing the Witch's Cult after the whale hunt in this timeline? I can't recall the specifics of the negotiation episode well enough to say confidently whether he did or didn't.

whiskeyii wrote:

I could understand sparing 20 dudes if you had a full army, but to give away half your forces is a bit much.

Crusch is aware that a hostile group is within Roswaal's territory. If we recall episode 16 it's mentioned that they anticipated this.

In episode 21 we see that precautions were made in case the cult attacks ( blocking the road with half of the mercenaries ). Ricardo even mentioned the information network that appears to overcome the various false reports that are made which lets the cult stay hidden. It isn't too far-fetched that this was shared information between the leaders.

So to give Subaru who clearly wants to advance against this extremely hostile group, half of her men while she is going straight back to the capital doesn't strike me as too generous or odd.

That was brilliant by Subaru.

Now hopefully they can take out Betelgeuse & the witches cult that is with him without any problems.

NeverConvex wrote:

I would have 'bought' this scene a lot more fully if Subaru had been forced to do at least some insistent nudging, explicitly bringing up his need for more troops, reminding Crusch and the merchants' of their alliance, etc.

Yeah, and if it had played out like that everyone would've been on his case for being entitled and egotistical. Who does he think he is, trying to twist their arms to help him after they already sacrificed so much! Like they owe him just because he succeeded through sheer dumb luck? Take the hint, Subaru - they know you have an alliance, if they wanted to give you troops they would have. Sheesh, he still hasn't learned his lesson, has he.

Really, this is one tough room. He's damned if he asks for help in desperation, he's damned if it's freely offered in gratitude.

Gina Szanboti wrote:

Yeah, and if it had played out like that everyone would've been on his case for being entitled and egotistical. Who does he think he is, trying to twist their arms to help him after they already sacrificed so much! Like they owe him just because he succeeded through sheer dumb luck? Take the hint, Subaru - they know you have an alliance, if they wanted to give you troops they would have. Sheesh, he still hasn't learned his lesson, has he.

I'm not sure I agree (depending on execution, I think it could have just come off as politically and strategically competent, precisely the skillset this arc seems to have focused on his lacking), but even if that's true, those are two very different kinds/levels of criticism, and only the former seems like a "bad thing" at the level of the narrative, because it's a criticism of the show/story, while the latter is a criticism of the in-universe moral integrity of a character. You can build a fantastic show around flawed characters; in fact, I think those flaws are usually what makes a character-centric show interesting.

Gina Szanboti wrote:

Really, this is one tough room. He's damned if he asks for help in desperation, he's damned if it's freely offered in gratitude.

Just to reinforce my point, running with the language you're using here: he's not damned in the latter case, at least not according to my prior argument; it targets the lack of plausibility in events, which is a storytelling problem if anything, not a problem with Subaru (and the many 'problems with Subaru' we've discussed here previously are actually in my opinion strengths of this story, not problems with it).

Gina Szanboti wrote:

Really, this is one tough room. He's damned if he asks for help in desperation, he's damned if it's freely offered in gratitude.

Yeah, for me, I'm echoing NeverConvex's statements. My problem isn't that Subaru gets men, it's how he gets them. The way that Crusch all but says "This victory is yours and yours alone" rather than the joint collaboration that it actually was. I actually agreed with Subaru when he said he wasn't responsible for the victory, but the impression I got from the narrative was that we were supposed to agree with Crusch when she tells him he's a bonafide hero, and it was all thanks to him. Just tweaking the language to say that he was pivotal to or instrumental in their victory would've been enough without going overboard on the praise.

Moreover, thematically speaking, I felt like this should've been more of a stepping stone on Subaru's way to becoming the hero he wants to be, rather than the grand victory the show posits it as. It just seemed like too much, too soon, especially when we just had Rem saying how her hero was the greatest. Just seemed like the show was hammering in the "See? See? Isn't he heroic?!" message with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer.

whiskeyii wrote:

Key wrote:

#844391 wrote:

There's a big difference in forcing a woman to be weaker for the sake of a man's ego, and becoming stronger than the woman so she's free to choose what she wants to do.

Granted, although I still feel like the way Wilhelm put it made it sound more like the former than the latter. (And yes, I knew the intent of what he said.) A minor adjustment to the wording in that scene would have probably solved that issue.

Agreed. That's why I worded my sentence with "what we got" seems like it's playing into tired, old tropes, even though I know the intent is otherwise. Could a more fleshed-out portrayal have gone a long way towards equalizing that relationship? Sure. But the flashbacks also had god-awful lines like "someone with a face as pretty as yours shouldn't wield a sword". Like, what the ever-loving heck?! Not to mention that "saving" someone from their dutiful burden flirts with the very tired damsel-in-distress idea, except that the damsel's trappings are internal rather than external.

Given all the other female characters present and accounted for I certainly don't see this as some issue. Call me old-fashioned and chauvinistic too, but I would identify with Wilheim's motivation too. The idea of sending the woman you love out there to fight and die would be considered no less than 50 years ago, an act of cowardice. This was when men and women had established roles in society and culture. This has been lost today in the societal revolution to the point now where some argue that even women should be conscripted and drafted and tossed out into the trenches as canon fodder. We don't know a whole lot about Wilheim and the swordswoman's backstory. But even at face value I can see why he would want her safe and away from the exact situation that lead to her death in the first place. That and it seems she too would have agreed and may have only been what she was due to circumstances. When Wilheim took that upon himself, she was happy to remit. Anyone who doesn't believe that such women exist can simply go read what St. Joan of Arc said. She didn't want to lead an army. She was perfectly happy just being a woman in her time and believed it was the duty of men to fulfill that duty. She stepped up because the men had lost their balls, so to speak. Similarly there is another example of Deborah in the Book of Judges.

One could say that if Re: Zero's world is based on those classical values, or at least in Wilheim's time, then it makes sense. Today's modernist sensibilities do not like that sort of thing, but I don't see the problem. Particularly given that she certainly wasn't a 'damsel in distress' who couldn't swing a sword. Given the whole focus about honor and it's importance, particularly to knights, Wilhelm simply stepped up and fought for his and her honor as he saw fit to. She couldn't just shirk her duty, he had to take her place for her to let go and for her to respect him as a replacement for that duty. And also because he wanted to be someone she could look up to. Any man in love would want that. Not merely for pride, but because men define each other based on their skill and usefulness. The better swordsman won. That benefited them both. She saved his life. He returned the favor by saving her from her ordeal.

whiskeyii wrote:

Yeah, for me, I'm echoing NeverConvex's statements. My problem isn't that Subaru gets men, it's how he gets them. The way that Crusch all but says "This victory is yours and yours alone" rather than the joint collaboration that it actually was.

I actually agreed with Subaru when he said he wasn't responsible for the victory, but the impression I got from the narrative was that we were supposed to agree with Crusch when she tells him he's a bonafide hero, and it was all thanks to him. Just tweaking the language to say that he was pivotal to or instrumental in their victory would've been enough without going overboard on the praise.

Isn't that what she did in fact say though? That even when Subaru insisted he didn't really do much, she rebuked him saying she wasn't so arrogant as to claim total victory for herself without honoring the decisive role he played in instigating the operation as well and ending it when things were dire and he put his life on the line. She certainly doesn't know about his ability to return by death. ESPECIALLY given he's not a soldier, and is the weakest person there, that makes what he did even more significant. It was indeed heroic in the eyes of everyone.

Sure maybe we can nitpick that it was played up more than necessary, though perhaps the director felt it was necessary to bring everything up after what were a chain of depressing episodes, and also it works towards the end where Subaru is suddenly agitated by that guy's appearance which works to make the audience suddenly go feeling Subaru's emotional high after defeating the whale to the "uh oh" moment. A slight cringe that keeps us hooked for next week in the hopes we don't see Subaru lose steam.

That and I'd probably attribute the over-gratitude everyone showed could also be making up for thinking badly about him, when he did make an ass of himself in the court a ways back, so maybe the display of gratitude helped alleviate some of the guilt and what they probably felt may have been a misjudgment? But that would just be my speculation, and what does matter is what's on screen at the end.

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