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EP. REVIEW: March comes in like a lion


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JacobC
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Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 3728
Location: SoCal
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:25 am Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
Then you don't understand what the job of an editor is. If a reviewer uses a word to describe an element of a show but doesn't explain why the word was used, that's a problem. If Nick had said the episode was scary and didn't bother to justify what about it was scary, that would be a problem. I pointed this out not because I disagree with an opinion of his - I am genuinely confused over where the opinion is coming from. It's a problem when a reader is lead to suspect that a reviewer doesn't understand what a particular word means.

And writing a sentence like "Me and Zac's job is to check for grammar problems..." is hilarious.


I knew you were going to harp on that when I wrote it, but decided to leave it in just to see if you'd really try to make some pedantic point out of it. Kinda disappointing to be proven right on that one tbh. Obviously, I don't use proper grammar when writing forum posts, I just write how I talk. "tl;dr" isn't review-appropriate grammar either. Anyway.

Nothing about Nick's review is confusing or unjustified. This is obvious because you explained very well what Nick meant in your rebuttal to his review, saying that you disagreed with his word choice and don't think it was how you would have described the show. Simple as that. There's no need to start brandishing a pitchfork and making ridiculous claims that people don't know how to do their jobs because you don't like how this review was written. Come on now.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:41 am Reply with quote
Just in case there is any confusion, I want to try and be clear about what my objections are because they may becoming conflated. There are opinions in the review I disagree with but that is not a problem. That happens all the time. Reviewer writes something, reader disagrees. Life as normal.

But my real problem with the review is confusion. It's not that I disagree with Nick's description of the humour as base - it's that I don't understand it. I'm confused by it. If he had given reasons for why he thought it was base, then I could either agree or disagree.

An editor's job is to ensure that a review has clarity. It's not to tell the reviewer what opinions to have, but it is to make sure that a review is understandable. So if a reviewer makes a claim that isn't then justified, I think that's the sort of thing that an editor would point out. The humour is base? Example, please.

South Park could justifiably be described as base (it's also very funny, but any show that has Paris Hilton coughing up big wads of sperm before becoming a human butt plug can only described as base). I'd love to know what part of March's comedy Nick considers base.

Oh and gosh your deliberate grammar mistake was just so clever! Rolling Eyes
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:14 pm Reply with quote
Continuing to really enjoy this show. I don't really find the humor in the show to be a detriment. I think back to the first season of Honey & Clover and realize that I only came to care about the characters after they had their silly/humerous interactions with one-another. I don't expect the humor in Sangatsu no Lion to make me laugh, but if it endears me more to the characters then it did its job. The segment with Hina being all flustered attempting to make her crush a bento did just that.
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Gina Szanboti



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:55 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
IAs I feared, he really only cares about the darkness and bleakness. I can imagine him fidgeting impatiently during the sunnier moments, knee bouncing up and down impatiently as he fervently prays the depression stuff will come back.

I wouldn't go that far, but it does seem like Nick thinks depressed people live in a world that's 100% depression, 24/7/365 or until the meds kick in, so he sees Rei's periods of relative normalcy as bewildering "tonal incongruities."

That's not how depression works, at least not until it gets to the point where you're practically immobilized by it. I think most people with depression have better and worse days, or hours, and can still have periods of feeling normal and even happy. That's usually about the time a minor setback or stabby negative thoughts jerk your chain and ask what you think you're doing, being happy like you deserve it, you worthless scum. When you're dealing with clinical depression, tonal incongruity is pretty much your life.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:16 am Reply with quote
I think it goes beyond merely how Nick thinks depression actually works. I've read enough of his reviews to know he likes his anime to be Serious. Very, Very Serious. It doesn't matter what the subject matter is, as long as it's Serious. I think that's the stuff he likes to watch and that inspires his desire to discuss the work in a review. So Heaven forfend if there is any attempt at all to "interfere" with the Serious Business.
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zrnzle500



Joined: 04 Oct 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:26 pm Reply with quote
Sorry Nick, but I don't think it stumbled in this episode, and looking at the user rating, it seems I'm not the only one.

I disagree that the comedy is intrusive. Like others said, depression isn't negative thoughts all day everyday, so happier hours or days are not odd or unnatural. I continue to find the "It has two tones therefore it is bad" wrongheaded as I have mentioned elsewhere on the site. We get it Nick, you don't like the comedy. We don't need you to look down on it every week. I'd make a bigger deal on this point, but I have long since tuned out Nick's opinions on comedy because we have different ideas about what is funny a lot of the time, both in the affirmative and the negative senses.

And I disagree that the head tilt doesn't work with Kyoko. To me, in those scenes it conveys how Kyoko is looking down at Rei, making the figurative literal. In that sense, it fits well with her character and with what is happening in the scenes.

So without those "stumbles", it seemed to me one of the series best episodes if not the best, and so far it seems I am not alone.
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Jayhosh



Joined: 24 May 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:29 pm Reply with quote
Shaft sure does love their Shaftisms. Sometimes I think they'd do well to keep them on a leash. Especially in this show's case (Nisekoi also says hi). The sunnier moments are purposely meant to contrast with the more somber ones to accurately portray what it's like to live with depression (supposedly, they say). I get that. But unfortunately, like Nick, most of the humor and manners of manga-to-anime adaptation in those scenes clash violently with the established tone (or lack thereof) in a drastic way for me. The humor doesn't do anything for me except make me roll my eyes. I don't think a single joke has gotten even a smirk out of me out of these first five episodes. It's not the fact that it has two emotional tones that I take issue with, it's the fact that I find the one to be executed so banally that it's sometimes painful to watch. So at least for me, I think this supposed theme of "emotional duality" could have been handled much more elegantly. Still though, the down to earth portions are quite masterfully executed, and those alone are enough to make me keep watching.
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Seadevil



Joined: 13 Dec 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:07 pm Reply with quote
zrnzle500 wrote:
Sorry Nick, but I don't think it stumbled in this episode, and looking at the user rating, it seems I'm not the only one.

I disagree that the comedy is intrusive. Like others said, depression isn't negative thoughts all day everyday, so happier hours or days are not odd or unnatural. I continue to find the "It has two tones therefore it is bad" wrongheaded as I have mentioned elsewhere on the site. We get it Nick, you don't like the comedy. We don't need you to look down on it every week. I'd make a bigger deal on this point, but I have long since tuned out Nick's opinions on comedy because we have different ideas about what is funny a lot of the time, both in the affirmative and the negative senses.

And I disagree that the head tilt doesn't work with Kyoko. To me, in those scenes it conveys how Kyoko is looking down at Rei, making the figurative literal. In that sense, it fits well with her character and with what is happening in the scenes.

So without those "stumbles", it seemed to me one of the series best episodes if not the best, and so far it seems I am not alone.


I don't usually comment (though have been a longtime reader), but I felt I had to say something during one of the best mid-season episodes I have seen in a while. While I won't be as hard on Nick, I have to agree with most of what you said here zrnzle500.

I often hear the phrase - "people have different ideas of comedy". While I generally agree with this, I won't agree that the form of comedy is the problem here. The comedy isn't my cup of tea either for all the reasons you speak towards Nick, but I find that I am not supposed to laugh or even smirk at these scenes. I have found the comedy is used to prevent the waterworks from flowing when the writer/director doesn't want them to. The comedy dials back the knob just enough to hold back the emotions until the right moment. This creates a sense of build-up and purpose behind the narrative, instead of a constant emotional stream of consciousness during a slow-paced storyline about depression. I would call this an amplifying feature of this show vice a detriment.
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zrnzle500



Joined: 04 Oct 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:33 pm Reply with quote
^I would agree that the comedy is not necessarily meant to be laugh out out loud hilarious or even smirking, though there were some such scenes in other episodes personally. I think you are correct in thinking that it is more about mood setting than comedy per se. Much humor in SoL is more meant to be pleasantly amusing/charming rather than outright hilarious. Much of that genre has a fairly consistent positive tone so it is used to slightly different ends, but the point stands nonetheless. Not to say SoL doesn't have outright jokes or that desiring more than that from one's comedy is somehow wrong.
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dark_bozu



Joined: 03 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:00 am Reply with quote
Comedy in Sangatsu are meant to show us the difference between various Rei's worlds -- shogi, his family, school and Kawamoto sister's worlds are different and affecting him. Aren't you see a Umino-sensei's message? Life is not consist of solely dark days and pain, you surely will find your place to belong to, even if everything seems like lost meaning to you. After life full of haterd, bulling and pain, Rei finally found a place where he's loved and always welcome. And when he'll finally grasp that, he would do anything to protect his ordinary life. Trust me, you won't recognize him after that (in a good way).
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Merida



Joined: 21 Feb 2012
Posts: 1945
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:56 am Reply with quote
Nick wrote:
Quote:
Jokes where characters are visibly labeled in panel very obviously do not translate to animation - those are cheap gags you can only get away with in manga because of their convenience in that medium, and faithfully adapting them only underlines their initial weakness.


Read: "didn't i already tell you in my last review (and the previous one! and the one before the previous one!!) that the way you are doing this is WRONG! So why are you still doing it?!" Seriously Nick, we get it already...Wink

This was easily the best episode so far, we finally learned about Rei's past and his complicated relationship with shougi. SHAFT handled that very well and really managed to convey the mood.
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Kreion



Joined: 02 Jan 2013
Posts: 332
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:26 am Reply with quote
Jayhosh wrote:
Shaft sure does love their Shaftisms. Sometimes I think they'd do well to keep them on a leash. Especially in this show's case (Nisekoi also says hi). The sunnier moments are purposely meant to contrast with the more somber ones to accurately portray what it's like to live with depression (supposedly, they say). I get that. But unfortunately, like Nick, most of the humor and manners of manga-to-anime adaptation in those scenes clash violently with the established tone (or lack thereof) in a drastic way for me. The humor doesn't do anything for me except make me roll my eyes. I don't think a single joke has gotten even a smirk out of me out of these first five episodes. It's not the fact that it has two emotional tones that I take issue with, it's the fact that I find the one to be executed so banally that it's sometimes painful to watch. So at least for me, I think this supposed theme of "emotional duality" could have been handled much more elegantly. Still though, the down to earth portions are quite masterfully executed, and those alone are enough to make me keep watching.

Disagree completely - this is one of the more restrained Shaft shows and most of them are used to the benefit of the show. The close ups, the large, empty scenery the use of size to portray emotion, it's all working towards the idea of Rei feeling alone. Which is then contrasted with the small, cozy home of the sisters. I also think that Nisekoi benefited from it - the second season not so much but the first was fine. If you've read Nisekoi, then you know the author already did things like that, he likes his close ups of stuff and his panels which were there for artistic purposes. Again, I think you're over-exaggerating a problem with isn't there - there ARE shows which got crushed by style which Shaft have made, neither of these shows are.

I don't understand why people seem to think the way you and Nick do when it comes to the emotions, it's very, very clear that the author wants to contrast the chaotic and fluffy life of the sisters with Rei's alone time. They are not supposed to be inherently funny, it's not about making you laugh, it's about making you feel at ease. There is so much stuff going on that you don't have time to think about Rei's problems until they rear their head again and remind you that behind this happiness is an emptyness that's slowly being dealt with.

An 'elegant' approach would feel too soft imo - it needs the hard cuts, the slamming of the door into a cold night where he's alone once more. The flustering and confusion contrasted with his empty Shogi playing. The disconnection is the point, and it's not entirely unrealistic. I'm not a mopey person by nature really, but I've certainly had times where things have been shitty and I've been having a good time with friends, only to then get home and feel completely empty inside.

The point in 3-gatsu is it's not just him. The sisters have the same problem, he's a welcome distraction to their own suffering, so they make the most of it.
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killjoy_the



Joined: 30 May 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:40 am Reply with quote
Nick's points haven't been really that the comedy doesn't fit the headspace, more like it's been adapted really poorly. Which I'll mostly agree it, except I'll also say that the comedy is mostly awful in manga form as well, so there's not much you could do about it except cut it - which would then change the tone quite a bit.
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Kreion



Joined: 02 Jan 2013
Posts: 332
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:39 am Reply with quote
killjoy_the wrote:
Nick's points haven't been really that the comedy doesn't fit the headspace, more like it's been adapted really poorly. Which I'll mostly agree it, except I'll also say that the comedy is mostly awful in manga form as well, so there's not much you could do about it except cut it - which would then change the tone quite a bit.


Lol, what - did you read your own post.

'It's been adapted poorly' 'The comedy is mostly awful in the original'. Pick one and considering this is pretty much a chapter per chapter adaption I don't think you can call it a bad adaption. It's one of the things which annoys me a lot - I will call out any anime studio for making a bad adaption, I might love Shaft but they are just as capable of [expletive] things up if not more so, but this is NOT a bad adaption. It 100% represents the original manga - as you said if it was removed then it would change the tone enough that you may as well make it a different series.

In terms of adaption I would consider tonal consistency to be one of the most important aspects, you can cut content as long as you keep the tone and change characters (somewhat) as long as you keep the tone. What you are suggesting would destroy the tone of the manga, at that point you would have to ask why the would bother adapting it.
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gabuhaha



Joined: 01 Mar 2016
Posts: 136
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:53 am Reply with quote
I have to agree with Nick and what a couple of others are saying here. I went and read a few chapters of the manga after the last episode when I just felt that the entire thing would be better in manga format. It was, by far. That's a sign of an adaptation that's not very good. They are going almost panel by panel which works for some shows but it was not working for the first four episodes of this one. A good adaptation embraces the essence of the source material while making it fit the new medium.

That being said, I think episode 5 did a better job of adaptation than the previous four. It was much more impactful in anime format than it was in manga format.

I actually do appreciate that the show goes back and forth between Rei's more depressed times and his funner times with the girls and with his shoji friends. Their protrayal of depression is actually pretty accurate.
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