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Miyuu~ki wrote:

Concerning the TV series vs. the OVA's
No.
I like the first two OVA's just for the fact that we do get to see Tomoe animated, but they completely twisted her character! Plus, any comedic relief Watsuki had thrown into that little arc to break up all the sad was completely removed, and the art, while it had it's moments, was overall just...weird.

I also found those changes weird, but I thought the reason for that was that the manga was shonen and thus had to keep a sense of humor, while the OVAs could be considered seinen and actually try to make the whole series realistic. I admit I love how the made Kenshin's past realistic, but I hated the second set of OVA as there we had the happy wanderer Kenshin... who was totally depressing

Evil or Very Mad

Miyuu~ki wrote:

...Whoever said the OVA's were better than watching the the TV series is on crack, the TV series was closer to the manga...

I have a view that one should never judge an anime on whether it follows its source accurately. It is a separate creation and deserves to be judged on its own terms.

Since my previous post, I've progressed a bit further with the TV series (I've now seen 42 episodes) and, while I'm enjoying it, the series is burdened with a lot of crap. The first two OVAs distill the story, leaving out the clownish antics and mostly cutting out the fantasy freak characters with their ridiculous weapons and fighting styles - Kenshin's story is so compelling it doesn't need such absurd adversaries.

I must say also, I like Misao - prefer her to Kaoru even.

sainta wrote:

...manga was shonen and thus had to keep a sense of humor, while the OVAs could be considered seinen and actually try to make the whole series realistic...

You've nailed it there.

BTW, I very much liked the art style of the first two OVAs (Trust and Betrayal). It's very moody and suits the subject matter well.

errinundra wrote:

Miyuu~ki wrote:

...Whoever said the OVA's were better than watching the the TV series is on crack, the TV series was closer to the manga...

I have a view that one should never judge an anime on whether it follows its source accurately. It is a separate creation and deserves to be judged on its own terms.

Then anyone could say the same thing about any adaptation, be it anime or live-action, Japanese or not so Japanese. Laughing

errinundra wrote:

I have a view that one should never judge an anime on whether it follows its source accurately. It is a separate creation and deserves to be judged on its own terms.

Since my previous post, I've progressed a bit further with the TV series (I've now seen 42 episodes) and, while I'm enjoying it, the series is burdened with a lot of crap. The first two OVAs distill the story, leaving out the clownish antics and mostly cutting out the fantasy freak characters with their ridiculous weapons and fighting styles - Kenshin's story is so compelling it doesn't need such absurd adversaries.

I must say also, I like Misao - prefer her to Kaoru even.

Rurouni Kenshin is a shounen series, there's going to be "fantasy freak characters." That's like saying "I really enjoy Ouran High School Host Club, but all this romantic, girly crap is getting old," or "These Tom Clancy novels are good, but I hate all the suspense!"
It's expected of the genre, don't like it? Don't read/watch it>.<

Clownish antics? Nobuhiro Watsuki is a silly goose, a total dork, in the most endearing way, and his humour reflects it.
Don't like it? Don't read/watch it.

Again, how are you a fan? You seem to dislike the series more than you like it, and you favor the changes over the original.

I can agree with you on the Kaoru thing, but I was never that big of a Kaoru fan, so most characters place ahead of her in my book;P

khryoleoz wrote:

@Miyuu~ki
Tomoe partially played a role in Kenshin's change. She saved his humanity, but her influence is what created the gap in his heart that produced the split Battousai persona. It was in the restoration of Kenshin as a whole person and not a split personality that Kaoru, Sano, Yahiko, and his reunions with Saito, Hiko, and Enishi were necessary components to his development.

Gah, the "split personality" thing. I don't believe Kenshin has a split personality, nor do I believe it was Watsuki's intention. The Jinchuu flashback proves it, he was the same person when he was a hitokiri as he is when he's the rurouni. The question is whether murder is justified, in times of war or peace. During the war, his certainty that what he was doing was justified and necessary mirrored Saitous, but I think you're absolutely right. When Tomoe changed his point of view, that certainty shattered, and isn't restored until his reunion with Hiko. For a while, he believes in two very conflicting ideals, which obviously causes inner termoil, but he's still one person, regardless of titles, nicknames, etc.

Miyuu~ki wrote:

Rurouni Kenshin is a shounen series, there's going to be "fantasy freak characters." That's like saying "I really enjoy Ouran High School Host Club, but all this romantic, girly crap is getting old," or "These Tom Clancy novels are good, but I hate all the suspense!"
It's expected of the genre, don't like it? Don't read/watch it>.<

Fair comment.

Quote:

Clownish antics? Nobuhiro Watsuki is a silly goose, a total dork, in the most endearing way, and his humour reflects it.
Don't like it? Don't read/watch it.

"Oro. Oro." Kenshin and his allies all act clownishly at times (Saito, perhaps, excepted). Sure, it's a shonen element but the OVAs are better for not having them.

Worse for me are all the eccentric looking and behaving opponents. For example, in a recent episode Kenshin fought a guy with a whip-like sword that he kept wrapped around his waist. I think his name was Cho. If I can't take him seriously, and I couldn't, the fight loses all its suspense. Again, yes, it's a shonen characteristic. To an older seinen like me, the underlying story is so good, it doesn't need that sort of thing.

Quote:

Again, how are you a fan? You seem to dislike the series more than you like it, and you favor the changes over the original.

I'm a middle-aged male and came to the series after watching and appreciating the OVAs, particularly Trust and Betrayal. I may never have watched the series but for my nephew giving me all his unwanted 1990s fansubs. I haven't read the manga, so my comment about anime standing on its own is a general one. The manga may be better but that wasn't my point. I'm just bothered whenever people say, "An anime is fail because it is different from the manga."

No, I don't dislike the series at all. I'm enjoying the Kyoto arc immensely. The positives way exceed the negatives. I like Kenshin and his allies. I like the way they are all developing over the course of the arc. I like their relationships and the moral dilemmas they face, particulary Kenshin's.

Another example. In the most recent episode I watched, Sanosuke fought the rock crushing monk at Shishio's lair. The posturing and gimmickry of the battle left me cold, as shonen fight scenes always do, yet I was really moved by the monk's back story and how his confrontation with Sanosuke forced him to face up to his past and re-assess his life.

Quote:

I can agree with you on the Kaoru thing, but I was never that big of a Kaoru fan, so most characters place ahead of her in my book;P

Maybe Kaoru will improve as I watch further. I thought she and Kenshin bounced of each other very well in the first season. But that was nothing compared with the dynamic that was created between Kenshin and Misao the moment the latter appeared. Kaoru has been subdued since her arrival in Kyoto. Misao outshines her.

It is true I am applying seinen standards to a shonen series, but I think Rurouni Kenshin is good even by those standards.

The "Then" poll makes sense (even if I don't quite understand how Sojiro ranked so highly. I guess it's the Hitsugaya Toshiro effect). The "Now" poll though? WTF happened? Kenshin, the star of the show, is no longer #1? How does that happen? Tomoe barely had any lines! No Kaoru in the top 10? No Sano?

I think people are remembering the OAV's as a whole, and placing undue praise on the character of Tomoe. For me, it was the stark contrast of TV Kenshin to Kenshin the hitokiri, that made the OAV so magnificent (not to mention the animation). Tomoe added a needed depth to Kenshin's backstory, but as a standalone character, I didn't find her to be that compelling.

My list is:

Kenshin
Saito
Kaoru
Sanosuke
Aoshi
Seijiro Hiko

(Where is the love for Kenshin's master on those lists?!)

@errinundra

Quoting eachother is getting too long, so I'm just going to make a general reply.

I'm not about to call Chou realistic( I do love him though, for the comedic relief he supplies, especially with Saitou later on) but there are actually swords that were rendered as thin as possible to be used as an almost whip-like blade, but they were more around a length of 3-5 feet. Try the english adaption of the series...they replaced his kansai accent with southern "hick" for Chou(and Tae and Sae as wellXD) HA.

I acctually do love the dub, but I'm biased because it was the first thing I saw on Toonami when I was eight and I fell inlove with the series>.< I'm suprised, and relieved, how many fans really want the origianl cast back for this new anime coming out:)

I'm glad to hear you actually appreciate the series, it didn't really seem like you did:O

I'm not one of those people who hate anime over manga, but that actually was my favorite part of the manga, so I was expecting the same story line, and I was left stunned when I finished the OVA's.
Tomoe was a MUCH stronger character potrayed in the manga.
She came across very dull and fragile in the OVAs, and while yes, she's not supposed to be very emotional, she still had a lot of wit and a sharp tongue that seemed to have disappeared in Trust and Betrayal. Kenshin had the same personality as when he's a rurouni, just a little less silly and more resolute in his ideals, not nearly as dead inside as potrayed in the OVAs.

I think what upset me the most was when Tomoe goes back to the hired assassins and realizes she's the bait, she's basically signed Kenshin's death warrant. She originally tries to kill the head man herself, to make it "one less" opponent for Kenshin. In the OVA, she tries to commit suicide, when it's been established she had considered suicide after learning of Akira's death, but couldn't bring herself to take her own life. Also, Kenshin was never confused during the confrontations in the forest, he was FURIOUS. The kind of fury that says "I'm taking my wife back and I don't care if I have to rip every single one of you limb from limb to do so"(think the episode with Eiji and Shingetsu Village x10). I really wish those aspecs hadn't been altered, because I feel they speak for Kenshin and Tomoe's characters in completely opposing fashions, when comparing OVA to manga.

I highly recommend reading(should you have enough time) the manga, at least the Jinchuu arc, (although I don't know how much you'll appreciate all the antagonists suddenly looking VERY similar to a few well-known American comic charactersXD) At least to see the story as it was originally told. The TV series does the first two arcs enough(more or less) justice that you wouldn't have to rehash volumes 1-17 unless you wanted to:P

But, who knows, you may be able to watch it soon, if this new anime that's just been green-lit is indeed the long overdue animation of the Jinchuu arc we're all convinced to hell and back that it isXD

errinundra wrote:

Since my previous post, I've progressed a bit further with the TV series (I've now seen 42 episodes) and, while I'm enjoying it, the series is burdened with a lot of crap. The first two OVAs distill the story, leaving out the clownish antics and mostly cutting out the fantasy freak characters with their ridiculous weapons and fighting styles - Kenshin's story is so compelling it doesn't need such absurd adversaries.

Then you should avoid Rurouni Kenshin, the only part of the series that doesn't have the "clownish antics" and "fantasy freaks" are the two volumes that the first two OVAs are based on.

captainbanana wrote:

My list is:

Kenshin
Saito
Kaoru
Sanosuke
Aoshi
Seijiro Hiko

(Where is the love for Kenshin's master on those lists?!)

Awesome list! Here's mine:

Kenshin
Saito
Aoshi
Hiko
Sanosuke
Yahiko
Sojiro
Misao
Kaoru

captainbanana wrote:

The "Then" poll makes sense (even if I don't quite understand how Sojiro ranked so highly. I guess it's the Hitsugaya Toshiro effect).

Soujirou Seta has a compelling backstory, and is GENERALLY considered to be the best swordfighter (debatably after Kenshin) in the manga. In a final vote he was voted as Kenshin's #1 rival by the readers. (Saito being #2)

Also, while I understand the value of aesthetics and have numerous shows I dislike (or don't like as much) due to character designs and the like, I'm curious why SO MANY people that like the OVAs have such disdain for the aesthetics of the TV series. For example, I hate the art style of GTO, but the story is so good, it supersedes that to me, but it seems like EVERYONE who comes to Kenshin through the OVAs (that likes them) "hates" the tv series because "it's too cartoony".

The 6 ovas are crap, the japanese people and all of us, want the jinchuu arc in anime, Tomoe and Enishi in the poll is the proof of it.

HeeroTX wrote:

captainbanana wrote:

The "Then" poll makes sense (even if I don't quite understand how Sojiro ranked so highly. I guess it's the Hitsugaya Toshiro effect).

Soujirou Seta has a compelling backstory, and is GENERALLY considered to be the best swordfighter (debatably after Kenshin) in the manga. In a final vote he was voted as Kenshin's #1 rival by the readers. (Saito being #2)

*nod, nod* I completely agree.

Also, while I understand the value of aesthetics and have numerous shows I dislike (or don't like as much) due to character designs and the like, I'm curious why SO MANY people that like the OVAs have such disdain for the aesthetics of the TV series. For example, I hate the art style of GTO, but the story is so good, it supersedes that to me, but it seems like EVERYONE who comes to Kenshin through the OVAs (that likes them) "hates" the tv series because "it's too cartoony".

It's not just in Kenshin that I've seen this issue it's in other anime as well. It seems many fans don't like to mix their comedy and drama together. They're like the people who don't want their food touching on their plates. It's either comedy or drama--no overlapping allowed. I, for one, appreciate the comedic moments in a drama series and vice versa -- the breakup is nice to relieve some tension, especially if I've deeply involved with the storyline. In addition, I feel the comedic moments during a serious situation reflects real life, too, comedy often puts most people at ease when dealing with something heart-pounding or life-changing. In other words dramatic.

PM

@PmChivas,

No. Mixing humour and drama can be great. The humour in Rurouni Kenshin is shonen. I don't find shonen humour all that humourous.

mufurc wrote:

lyransi wrote:

I agree, and even though I watched the anime series first, the OVAs were definitely more memorable. So now after so many years, I can hardly remember the plot from the original anime (much less character specifics), but can recall the Jinchu arc quite vividly due to the huge impression the OVAs made. The animation was superior and the character portrayals were more poignant than even the manga original (a rarity). Thus it's no surprise to me either that characters from that arc would top the list. The OVAs made them difficult to forget!

If you've read the manga you should know that the OVA had next to nothing to do with the Jinchuu arc. That's my favorite part of the manga and I was very disappointed to see what they'd done to it in the OVA.

Then again, I was never a fan of the OVAs (not even the first - tragedy is nice but the OVAs have none of the human touch and characterization of the manga) and was frankly quite appalled by the second OVA in general. It's Rurouni Kenshin in name only. think even Watsuki disclaimed it.

It's not my intention to argue whether the manga is better or the OVAs as that is not the point of the thread. Not to mention, I almost always prefer the manga over any animated rendition, particularly if I read the manga first. However, this was one of those rarities.

Sorry, it's also been over a decade so I can no longer recall arc names. However, the flashback volumes delving into Tomoe and Kenshin's relationship was the only part of the manga I liked enough to re-read (though it's also been numerous years since that occurred). Though I remember being touched by the Tomoe arc when I was younger, when I looked at it a second time, I found that I preferred the portrayal of events in the OVAs more so than the portrayal in the manga. Not to mention the prominent feature of the Venom(from Spiderman)-like foe that completely ruined the pacing of the Tomoe retrieval for me in the manga, but simply the emotional factor wasn't there anymore when I reread that manga arc. Kenshin didn't seem quite as devastated nor conflicted in the manga after Tomoe's betrayal. He simply fought without giving much thought to anything (like any other shounen manga protagonist). The void that was his emotional state after his wife betrayed him was almost tangible in the OVAs in contrast. These are simply my thoughts as to why the OVAs' characters turned up so prominently in the recent polls.

lyransi wrote:

Sorry, it's also been over a decade so I can no longer recall arc names.

The Jinchuu arc is basically the second half of the manga that includes the flashback about Tomoe in connection with Enishi's revenge.

lyransi wrote:

Not to mention the prominent feature of the Venom(from Spiderman)-like foe that completely ruined the pacing of the Tomoe retrieval for me in the manga,

Er, maybe I'm mistaken but the Venom copycat wasn't present in the Tomoe story at all (btw they were trying to retrieve Kaoru, but that was long after "Venom" was written out of the story). He was one of Enishi's henchmen.

lyransi wrote:

but simply the emotional factor wasn't there anymore when I reread that manga arc. Kenshin didn't seem quite as devastated nor conflicted in the manga after Tomoe's betrayal.

I completely disagree. Sure, the OVAs upped the tragedy aspect, but at the cost of the human touch that made it really tragic in the manga. In the OVAs the characters act as if they are completely disconnected from Rurouni Kenshin. It's tragic but it's impersonal and distant, like random people acting out a classic tragedy play.

I've heard many people say that they think Kenshin and "Battousai" are separate personalities because Kenshin's characterization is so different in the OVAs adn the manga. In the manga Kenshin is not numb or emotionally dead. We can see the later Kenshin in him, whereas in the OVAs he's Emotionally Dead-ish Tragic Hero and they leave the viewer wondering how we got from that to the Kenshin we have in the manga/anime series (then again, apparently the OVAs completely disregard the fact that they're supposed to be part of a larger story).

Also, I found that the emotions run much deeper and much more realistically in the manga. The part where he kills Tomoe is full of horror and anguish. There's no void, no "now I'm totally emotionally dead" - there's real, tangible pain.

lyransi wrote:

These are simply my thoughts as to why the OVAs' characters turned up so prominently in the recent polls.

Again, they're not "the OVAs' characters" - they're characters from the manga first and foremost. Just because the OVAs were popular in the US (and consequently in the Western fandom) doesn't mean they were so definitive in Japan (again: Watsuki pretty much disclaimed the last one). The article uses images from the OVA for whatever reason (most likely to advertise the animation projects) but I'd bet anything that their popularity is based on the manga and not the anime. Look at Enishi - do you think he would've placed so high if all people had to go on were the OVAs? His appearance in them amounted to little more than a cameo, whereas he's the final boss in the manga, a well-developed character with lots of screentime. (He was already very popular when the manga ended.)

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