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zalas wrote:

Hon'ya-chan wrote:

Shin ATproof wrote:

If you're not buying Anime from say, ADV because of an issue of "price" then you're probably just making an excuse as to why you don't pay for the Anime you watch.

My issue is that the companies don't do what I want.

I want timely releases. I want Wangan Midnight. I want decently translated Anime. I want quick turnaround.

The problem is, I can back up my wants with ready cash in hand. The companies don't want to cater to what I want or do it at their leisure.

Just curious, but how much money are you willing to pony up for a 4-episode DVD with speedy yet great translations? $30? $50? $100? I have a feeling that some of the translation quality problems might lie in the fact that the pay for anime translation isn't that great.

Per episode, the cost of translation is a relatively small part of the overall localization cost of a DVD, it's around 5% what it costs to dub an episode, maybe lower.
The translation quality issues are mainly because of poor oversight and editing, which is a sign of understaffing and/or overworking.

If we assume that an anime DVD with 4 episodes would sell 1000 copies, the cost of the translation itself is around two dollars per DVD, or 7% of the overall cost of the DVD if it were priced at $30.

Hon'ya-chan wrote:

Shin ATproof wrote:

If you're not buying Anime from say, ADV because of an issue of "price" then you're probably just making an excuse as to why you don't pay for the Anime you watch.

My issue is that the companies don't do what I want.

I want timely releases. I want Wangan Midnight. I want decently translated Anime. I want quick turnaround.

The problem is, I can back up my wants with ready cash in hand. The companies don't want to cater to what I want or do it at their leisure.

This is not necessarily the fault of the companies you're blaming. You're leaving the licensors out of the equation here.

As a good example - I know people want quick DVD releases. However, with a recent title, we had to wait for the Japanese DVD masters in order to release the program.

Now, if we have released with the "TV" masters, we would have been faster, but at the same time, we would not have received the benefit of the extra work put in after the fact on the programs to improve the quality for the Japanese DVD releases. So the fans are angry with us either way.

In addition, you can't get the shows here out to the fans until the licensing process is complete. Sometimes this takes ages. Or, the Licensors, who frankly many of which are completely out of tune with the market outside of Japan, have unreasonable expectations.

So, don't put all of the blame on the US distributors. Unfortunately, sometimes these things take time.

shawnek wrote:

Hon'ya-chan wrote:

Shin ATproof wrote:

If you're not buying Anime from say, ADV because of an issue of "price" then you're probably just making an excuse as to why you don't pay for the Anime you watch.

My issue is that the companies don't do what I want.

I want timely releases. I want Wangan Midnight. I want decently translated Anime. I want quick turnaround.

The problem is, I can back up my wants with ready cash in hand. The companies don't want to cater to what I want or do it at their leisure.

This is not necessarily the fault of the companies you're blaming. You're leaving the licensors out of the equation here.

As a good example - I know people want quick DVD releases. However, with a recent title, we had to wait for the Japanese DVD masters in order to release the program.

Now, if we have released with the "TV" masters, we would have been faster, but at the same time, we would not have received the benefit of the extra work put in after the fact on the programs to improve the quality for the Japanese DVD releases. So the fans are angry with us either way.

In addition, you can't get the shows here out to the fans until the licensing process is complete. Sometimes this takes ages. Or, the Licensors, who frankly many of which are completely out of tune with the market outside of Japan, have unreasonable expectations.

So, don't put all of the blame on the US distributors. Unfortunately, sometimes these things take time.

So if it takes every US R1 company going in the red or out of business before the licensors start to realize that their practices are destroying any profitability in the market, we should just be okay with that?
As it is now, those practices by the Japanese have ghettoized all but the most mainstream shows into picking up the scraps after the fansubs. And yes, I'm including your releases of Emma and Aria...
You know the sales numbers you're getting for them, and you also know the number of people who actually watched the shows when they aired: So what will it take for you to be able to convince the Japanese licensors to change?

Is the only solution to speeding up licensing and localization complete control by the Japanese?

DirtnSky wrote:

The prediction for ADV at AX is as follows:

MAJOR New Titles coming out for christmas and TOns- TONS of nick nacks, CDs and what nots abound all around! Free candy for all the good little children at the kiosks and trademark plushy animal giveaways every hour! Did I mention the Major New Titles?! ADV talkbacks there will be filled with voice actors, producers, and marketers ribbing and larfing up a storm of frivolity! The atmosphere will be infectious and a glowing good feeling will be felt to all who are there! The interlube will be flooded with gushing gleeful rapture minutes later and the convention closes with a take of "we are the world" and donations aplenty to struggling artists around the globe!!!

The prediction for ADV after a week passes:
401(k) plans in the Entire company are canceled, drawers are cleaned out and CHAPTER SEVEN (NOT number 11) is enacted.

Wikipedia get updated.

You have to be a total fool to believe what you read on wikipedia because only 50% of what's posted on thier is true while the other is just exaggarated.

Plus, like several other people here that said, ADV is most likely making office space for it's now defunct magazine division. And whotever said that Sojitz did pull out of ADV, where's the evidence? And why are most of the titles removed from thier webiste earlier this year still in print and for sale?

tidusora wrote:

I'm starting to get annoyed by people's theories that ADV is going to shut down just like Geneon. What gets to me is that people are comparing Geneon to ADV Films. How is Geneon like ADV Filims?

They are both anime companies that are having problems

Quote:

Unlike Geneon, ADV Films is actually trying, Geneon just gave up.

They didn't give up, their parent company pulled the plug.

TornadoTatsumaki wrote:

Plus, like several other people here that said, ADV is most likely making office space for it's now defunct magazine division. And whotever said that Sojitz did pull out of ADV, where's the evidence? And why are most of the titles removed from thier webiste earlier this year still in print and for sale?

The evidence is that ADV and ARM used to be listed on Sojitz's web page under "international investment assests", and those listings have now disappeared.

The reason the titles reappeared is that ADV renegotiated the licenses with the Japanese licensors... all except for Gurren Lagann and probably Keroro Gunsou.

So to counter, if you assume that Sojitz DIDN'T pull out, how do you explain what happened?

samuelp wrote:

Is the only solution to speeding up licensing and localization complete control by the Japanese?

Short answer: mostly yes.

Long answer: The way consortium works for anime means that everyone on the board of the committee has to agree before things can move ahead - it's the nature of the beast here. Even with direct foreign investment from a R1 company, say, they only take one seat out of possibly 4-5 board members. The only way this can change? All of these guys on board has to get a clue, or that a foreign company has so much cash that they just fund the project in the first place and has total control over license deals.

Neither is likely to change soon though to be honest; a lot of the board members (eg publishers, merchandising, music companies, TV stations) don't give a crap about how their stuff do overseas since they never ever tapped into the market unlike the videograms sellers, so they're totally ignorant of the problem of internet/piracy/fansub/what not overseas. On the other hand, the foreign companies never got big enough to be able to pony up the cash to own an entire anime project, and probably never will. So yeah, I won't hold my breathe here at all.

samuelp wrote:

Is the only solution to speeding up licensing and localization complete control by the Japanese?

Nope.

Even that won't work in most cases. See Bandai, Geneon, Viz.

The Japanese companies won't risk cannibalization of their domestic market to succeed overseas. In otherwords, they'd rather risk less than stellar performance in the American market than risk losing Japanese sales to American sales. Turn the subtitles off on a $30 5-episode disc, and what do you have? A much better deal than a $40 2-episode disc. Japanese fans would reverse-import R1 DVDs like mad (many already do).

Whatsmore, Japanese licensors are often limited by their contractual obligations to investing partners and domestic licensees. A Japanese TV network typically won't invest in a series unless they have a minimum 90-day international period of exclusivity. So even if the licensor wants to get the DVD out in North America relatively quickly, they aren't allowed to.

What you get, is a situation that is hard to change, and takes a long time to change. To be honest, I don't think it can be changed for all titles. OAVs and movies might be our best bet for eventual near-simultaneous releases, with TV series, the exclusivity period will always be an issue, but maybe over time the companies can streamline the process to a point where R1 consumers are getting the product close to the end of the exclusivity period.

The only way I see for R1 companies to "demand" faster turnaround is to be major investment partners in the series. Unfortunately, for the most part, the R1 industry doesn't do that anymore. Most aren't in the shape to do it, and even if they are, it's too risky. And even then, look at Stand Alone Complex. BEI was a major investment partner, and we still had to wait pretty long for it to come out in North America.

However, I don't disagree with the points made by you and Honyachan. Consumers don't care about why the product isn't available, they only care about the product. In the case of media, if they can't buy it, they'll obtain it in another manner. The industry has no choice but to either adapt to this, profit regardless of it, or fail.

Notice that part about "profit regardless" ? See Naruto. Viz doesn't give a damn about fansubs, Given the relative impossibility of simultaneous releases, companies assume that their titles will be pirated, they work to discourage piracy (to minimize it), but they also work to make sure that they will turn a profit regardless. That's generally the only option available to them right now, profit despite piracy, and if you can't, don't license the title. Which is why some titles aren't being licensed, the piracy aspect is calculate to have too significant an effect on sales. Sure some of those titles might be profitable for the R1 company if they were released simultaneously, or if everyone had a conscious and didn't pirate it, or pirated it and bought it. But that's not going to happen.

Class is now out.

-t

For the record, I came to this thread not to talk about licensing 101, but rather to point out that the auction indicates nothing about ADV's situation. It's more of a reminder of their situation, we already know they've laid staff off, what's the point in keeping desks and chairs for those staff?

Some people mentioned "but they're selling servers!" they aren't, they're selling very loud and inefficient heating units. My laptop is faster than the antiquated servers that they're getting rid of.

To quote something someone recently said to me, getting people to pay to take this stuff is more economical than paying for a truck to take it all to the dump.

-t

TornadoTatsumaki wrote:

And whotever said that Sojitz did pull out of ADV, where's the evidence? And why are most of the titles removed from thier webiste earlier this year still in print and for sale?

The evidence is everywhere, but most people are somewhat misinterpreting it.

When you invest millions in a company and own 20% of their shares, you can't just "pull out." You need to work with that company to find someone to buy your 20%.

Has that happened yet? No one is saying, (this is public information folks, I'm not telling you anything you can't figure out on your own), and likely no one will say.

In the meantime, depending on the contracts, you might be able to stop providing the "added value" that came with your investment.

-t

tempest wrote:

Whatsmore, Japanese licensors are often limited by their contractual obligations to investing partners and domestic licensees. A Japanese TV network typically won't invest in a series unless they have a minimum 90-day international period of exclusivity. So even if the licensor wants to get the DVD out in North America relatively quickly, they aren't allowed to.

So simple soultion: get the translations ready, after the grace period has passed, BAM!!, product is ready to ship out within the month. What's so hard about that?

Quote:

However, I don't disagree with the points made by you and Honyachan. Consumers don't care about why the product isn't available, they only care about the product. In the case of media, if they can't buy it, they'll obtain it in another manner.

Exactly. I still have my Black Lagoon fansubs from the Second Barrage because Geneon decided to croak and didn't release the DVD's. I've been more than faithful in purchasing the DVD's and deleting the fansubs.

Hon'ya-chan wrote:

So simple soultion: get the translations ready, after the grace period has passed, BAM!!, product is ready to ship out within the month. What's so hard about that?

Selective argument. It's a compound problem, that was just one of the issues I listed, solving it alone doesn't solve the other problems.

Also, notice the word "minimum" after 90 days? It might be 180 days...

As I said, what we can hope for is if they resolve the other issues, and maybe we can look forward to R1 releases right after the periodof exclusivity. Sadly that's a BIG if.

-t

abstract-alchemist wrote:

I think this, combined with the number of new licenses/releases by ADV (0, to be precise), and the re-releasing of thinpaks that are already out is a good sign that ADV might be going the way of Geneon. It's too bad, but I think the person who talks about buying singles is right. Yes, it is a little pricey, but anime is an expensive hobby. If you can't afford it, then you shouldn't be complaining about it. As Chris from AOD has in his signature, Anime is not a right. You can't afford it, don't get into it. Those of you who wait for sales/boxsets to go on sale, you're not contributing to the health of the industry. At that point, the company is trying to recoup it's losses, not making a profit. Sorry you don't make enough to afford your hobby, but that's life. Yeah, it's unfair, but it's also the truth.

Problem is that ADV wants people to buy the singles, then when they do, some bright spark at ADV goes and stops the singles in mid release to then put out a box set of the entire series, making those who invested in the singles to then either re-purchase the volumes they already have in order to get the rest, or stop buying the series altogether leaving them stuck with unfinished volumes on their shelves, or losing money trying to sell them to no one who wants them. Like has happened here in the UK with "Kurau Phantom Memory". Now who's going to take the chance of buying a series single at a time when ADV can do that to it's customers? That was one daft marketing decision right there. Rolling Eyes

TornadoTatsumaki wrote:

DirtnSky wrote:

The prediction for ADV at AX is as follows:

MAJOR New Titles coming out for christmas and TOns- TONS of nick nacks, CDs and what nots abound all around! Free candy for all the good little children at the kiosks and trademark plushy animal giveaways every hour! Did I mention the Major New Titles?! ADV talkbacks there will be filled with voice actors, producers, and marketers ribbing and larfing up a storm of frivolity! The atmosphere will be infectious and a glowing good feeling will be felt to all who are there! The interlube will be flooded with gushing gleeful rapture minutes later and the convention closes with a take of "we are the world" and donations aplenty to struggling artists around the globe!!!

The prediction for ADV after a week passes:
401(k) plans in the Entire company are canceled, drawers are cleaned out and CHAPTER SEVEN (NOT number 11) is enacted.

Wikipedia get updated.

whotever said that Sojitz did pull out of ADV, where's the evidence? And why are most of the titles removed from thier webiste earlier this year still in print and for sale?

ADV only publishes "good" PR. They never gush about their internal problems. The reason we never heard or read about Sojitz no longer funding ADV is because it would've created a panic... like this auction is doing right now.

Mohawk52 wrote:

Problem is that ADV wants people to buy the singles, then when they do, some bright spark at ADV goes and stops the singles in mid release to then put out a box set of the entire series, making those who invested in the singles to then either re-purchase the volumes they already have in order to get the rest, or stop buying the series altogether leaving them stuck with unfinished volumes on their shelves, or losing money trying to sell them to no one who wants them. Like has happened here in the UK with "Kurau Phantom Memory". Now who's going to take the chance of buying a series single at a time when ADV can do that to it's customers? That was one daft marketing decision right there. Rolling Eyes

To be fair, you can get the whole series now for less that the RRP of the outstanding volumes, and if you can then palm off the extras on someone who doesn't know any better (e.g. CEX, whose shelves were flooded with those Boulevard discs when they were going for a £5 a pack in booksale) then you gain even more.