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The Joy of Sakuga

reanimator wrote:

No matter how great the technical prowess of Disney and others had, the whole nostalgia is just full of hot air to cover up incompetence and lackluster output.

No matter how much passion japanese animators have they still leagues below of what Disney did almost 80 years ago. And I have more respect for a company which willing to throw hundreds of millions into projects like Inside Out without any guarantee of success than any risk-safe output from Japanese companies. As for 2D animation, face it, it lost momentum, it isn't popular anymore with mainstream crowd Iron Giant, Titan A.E., Princess and the Frog already proved it.

Okay, I don't disagree that what Japanese animators are making is no where close to golden age Disney animations in term of technical skills. Does it mean their effort is futile and meaningless whether successful or not?

You said you respect Disney throwing hundred million dollars into risky 3D animation. If the risky big budget is major factor for you to enjoy animation, then I think you shouldn't bother watch anime at all as it offends for your respect for being low budget and low risk.

If an animation production studio has bad track record, then do you think investors will throw in hundreds of million for new project? Of course not. People risk more if the outcome appears favorable.

I do agree that Japanese can't risk too much, but they're not Hollywood.

Does it really matter if mainstream doesn't care about 2D animation?

Sure their animation quality was top notch, but were they prepared for audience who have already outgrown from child-friendly, fairy tale nature of western 2D animation?

@Desa
Strangely enough however, while I'd say that on the whole the action was really what made that show, for some reason the particular moment that stuck with me the most was Shinpei Sawa's dance animation in episode 6.

And from there I must say I disagree that there's no value in seeing animation that is realistic. The above dance scene is so incredible because of how accurately it depicts human motions, and the motions of the fabric in their dresses and scarves, and even the motion of a metal chain necklace hanging out of a pocket. To me, the magic is that unlike a live action video, where the depiction of things like hair and fabric and muscle and tendon is trivial, in animation it is not because what you are seeing is not hair and fabric and muscle and tendon. It's not even a real object. It's just a series of drawings, but the artist created them such that when viewed in succession, it actually looks like those things, actually moves like those things move. The map they created actually looks like the territory in the reality it's depicting. And it came directly from their heads. It's like looking directly into someone else's brain. This is incredible.

@Desa
Western commercial animation never got the knack of moving the 'camera' through 3 dimensional space, or giving 3 dimensionality to the characters and environments in the same way that anime did. And they were doing it from the beginning. this is from 1947, and a cut like this simply does not exist in western commercial drawn animation. Many western animators would say things like doing something like that is impossible.

Where did you get this idea from? I never said that their effort was meaningless, just that respecting craft of japanese animators and simultaneously picture Disney and other american animators as if they are dumb old farts drunk with nostalgia is slightly dishonest.

No matter how much passion japanese animators have they still leagues below of what Disney did almost 80 years ago.

Again, it has nothing to do with amount of budget, the mere will to spend money on something that not instantly screams "I'm gonna make gazillion dollars" is already commendable.

Their track record in the recent years hasn't been good. If anything it should've put doubt into the minds of Disney.

So, it's okay for japanese studios to play safe, but otherwise it's a terrible crime for executives to make financially right decisions? Should I remind that we're talking about commercial animation here and profitability is essential part of it.

Say, do you think audience outgrown Ghibli films too? I mean, vast majority of them are child friendly as well. And what about all these shounen flicks aimed at teens and young adults?

I can't be sure if it was Miyazaki who said it, but I'm in the group that places CG into the realm of puppetry. There's nothing to say good CG can't be amazing, but often times the draw of 2D drawing animation runs against the grain of the benefits of CG. The way 2D and 3D art assets are made is so different there are fairly sizable differences in what each one can achieve. My only hope for CG in anime is to help reduce cost and workload so that can spend more on the Sakuga elements.

An animator's personal style never leaks through in CG, and that would be an asset of anime I would mourn the loss of.

It's your dismissive tone about passion gave me the idea that whole effort is meaningless.

Sakuga fans have pretty much have equal respect to both animators from Japan and the West. It's just that they're more focused on Japanese side because anime is prevalent.

I understand that investors are not looking for quick return on their risky investment, but what is there to be commendable of? Hollywood has been throwing in more money into both risky and predictable animation production than entire anime industry production combined.

Japanese system is not Hollywood. Their circumstance is far different and they don't have luxury to throw in a hundred million dollars for a production. By playing safe , at least it keeps numerous animation production going with dedicated fan base. They're making appropriate decision for time being. Maybe something happens in Japanese economy and it may change investors' mind. Who knows?

As for 2D, I strongly believe anime fandom is keeping 2D relevant when big features gave up.

reanimator wrote:

No matter how great the technical prowess of Disney and others had, the whole nostalgia is just full of hot air to cover up incompetence and lackluster output.

No matter how much passion japanese animators have they still leagues below of what Disney did almost 80 years ago. And I have more respect for a company which willing to throw hundreds of millions into projects like Inside Out without any guarantee of success than any risk-safe output from Japanese companies. As for 2D animation, face it, it lost momentum, it isn't popular anymore with mainstream crowd Iron Giant, Titan A.E., Princess and the Frog already proved it.

Sakuga fandom is pointless. Anime has the worst animation of any form of animation. US animation has much more drawings

US animation has more detailed facial expressions and proper lip syncing. The facial expressions in anime are beyond forced and stiff and the mouth flaps are beyond a joke.

Not a disagreement, but of course Disney spent fortunes on elaborate multiplane shots in films like Pinocchio and Bambi, precisely to convey 3D space (and I think it succeeded). I realise you may see these shots as aesthetically different from '3D' space in anime - and the clip you linked to is beautiful - but I think they may be closer relatives than 2D anime and 3D CGI.

@Desa What is that clip from?

Ah Sakuga. It focuses on the most obvious but least important part of anime. I am reminded of the otaku in Genshiken, who would watch that clearly awful show-within-a-show but spend all their time passionately analysing and discussing the animation and storyboarding rather than plot or characters (or even music).

Oh, and I find the attitude of the author towards those fans who didn't like the animation in that Naruto episode to be quite condescending.

The biggest problem here is, the dance itself was mediocre. This is the core of what I was saying about how the "content" of the animation matters more to me than the quality of the animation itself. Even the Hare Hare Yukai dance showed more creativity than this, and that was in 2006. Such lackluster moves might appeal to tweens but it doesn't cut it for me.
And as if to mask the fact that the dance wasn't up to par, they kept cutting in and out of the central piece, which is something I hate more than anything in action series; When you're finally getting to the good part, the last thing you want is an interruption. That's the biggest action movie taboo.

My wording was unclear. I did not mean there was no value in realistic animation. I'm saying there's no value in realistic animation as the end goal. "How" you animate something is one thing, but "what" you animate is another. I'm saying why not apply all that realism into animating something you don't see people doing everyday? A dance piece would be a good place for that, but the choreographer didn't feel like pushing any boundaries (ironic for a series called "Beyond the Boundary"). The characters are all young and relatively fit, yet there wasn't a single strenuous motion in the entire dance. A grandma could've pulled off those moves. Again, all those little details you mentioned? I don't have a problem with them, nor did I fail to notice them. What I take issue with is spending time on fine details at the expense of the big picture, in this case, the core dance. The same issue plagues the other action scenes; Too much attention to background and fine details, not enough actual combat.

Not a disagreement, but of course Disney spent fortunes on elaborate multiplane shots in films like Pinocchio and Bambi, precisely to convey 3D space (and I think it succeeded). I realise you may see these shots as aesthetically different from '3D' space in anime - and the clip you linked to is beautiful - but I think they may be closer relatives than 2D anime and 3D CGI.