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Best Gundam series?


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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:52 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
In the episode before the final one, Kamille's beam saber grows longer due to his rage. Before that, he shielded himself with his Newtype powers.

Just a few episode previously, the Newtypes were dueling with their minds. In his first appearance, Scirocco was using his ability to assert "pressure" to prevent Char from wiping him out with the large laser cannon.

It didn't just come out of nowhere.


dtm42 wrote:
I don't recall any of the instances where supposedly it had demonstrated unusual abilities before the final three or so episodes.


Ain't reading fun?

Deux ex machinas needs not be a single act or limited to a single instance.

penguintruth wrote:
In the original series, Amuro and Lalah dueled with their minds.


Big step up from that to resurrecting the ghosts of your comrades and using their spiritual energy to create forcefields and increase the size and power of your Gundam's weapons.
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:59 pm Reply with quote
Not really a big push. Amuro conjured up the ghost of Lalah (though she didn't physically appear) at the end of the original series, and Mouar's spirit visited Jerid Messa after her own death. And Kamille kept seeing Four all over the place after her death.

Using these powers for combat increased in frequency and power towards the end as the battle reached a more desperate, intense stage. That's a major theme of Zeta Gundam, the pressure put on these characters and their reactions.

The Gundam wasn't doing these things, Kamille was, and the Gundam was the medium.

Like I said, taking Tomino programs at face value is a mistake. It doesn't need to make 100% physical sense, because it's a thematic ability, to turn that emotion into power.

They had been doing that throughout the entire series. It just came to a head in the finale.
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nightjuan



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 1473
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:09 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:

Um, the first forty percent of ZZ Gundam begs to differ.


Yeah, well...you got me there, but I did accept that even his lighthearted side has had mixed results. Razz

I never implied that everything else he did was great or necessarily better, but...in my humble opinion, his hits easily make up for his misses. One way or another, he eventually managed to diversify his work in certain respects.

I was actually thinking about some of the shows he started making after finally letting the Universal Century rest in peace, figuratively speaking: stuff like Overman King Gainer and even Turn A Gundam, although that show was closer to being properly balanced rather than simply lighthearted. His mindset, nevertheless, had already changed.

Regarding the bio-sensor...I've already thrown in my two cents.
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KLAC
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Joined: 22 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:36 am Reply with quote
well for me it would be GS series really this series have something that other gundam should focus more on CHARACTERS

really characters, story, drama, emotion, etc really real source of GS.

yet also another reason is lacus besides the way she sound in english voice chantal strand is by far most rare & unique voice of this generation.
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Shawn Shaolin



Joined: 30 Dec 2008
Posts: 111
Location: New Jersey
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:22 am Reply with quote
I happened to like Gundam 0083 because it actually peered into the lives of the people actually engineering, and building the Gundams.

I also like G Gundam because I like fighting shows and big robots. G Gundam may be one of the most memorable series.
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:29 am Reply with quote
KLAC wrote:
yet also another reason is lacus besides the way she sound in english voice chantal strand is by far most rare & unique voice of this generation.


What are you, her agent? She's a mediocre voice talent at best.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:36 am Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
dtm42 wants to label Zeta as melodramatic, but he's defending a show that is basically weepy, personality-deprived idiots with no presence piloting awfully designed mecha for a non-existent plot.


Yeah, you keep on attacking SEED but as I said, how is Zeta any different?

penguintruth wrote:
It has characters acting realistically in desperate situations. Unlike the CE characters who are too bland to even consider stupid. They have literally no personalities. They're just puppets being pulled by strings.


Again, this applies to both Zeta and SEED. In SEED, the two main characters (Kira especially) are pushed to their limit as they are forced to fight against each other to protect the ones they care about. Why is it the Zeta characters get a free pass because their behavior is 'realistic' and yet the SEED characters are all 'weepy idiots'?

Quote:
It felt like they just added a lot of crying because they hoped people would mistake it for characterization.


Sort of like how in Zeta they just added a bunch of people hitting each other and hoped people would mistake it for drama?

Quote:
Unfortunately, people like you did. But by all means, enjoy your shallow, plastic garbage.


How quick you are to state your interpretation as absolute fact and declare other views as mistaken. Remember this post from yesterday?

penguintruth wrote:
The_Libertarian_Otaku wrote:
Gundam 00 had a stellar dub. PROVE ME WRONG!


You just challenged me to disprove an opinion. This is the most retarded thing I have read on the internet, congrats.


Funny how it's 'retarded' for somebody else to do this but not you.
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:00 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
Again, this applies to both Zeta and SEED. In SEED, the two main characters (Kira especially) are pushed to their limit as they are forced to fight against each other to protect the ones they care about. Why is it the Zeta characters get a free pass because their behavior is 'realistic' and yet the SEED characters are all 'weepy idiots'?


Because Kamille has a personality, for one. It's not particularly likable, but it exists. Kira is just a robot Amuro Ray, who barely makes an impression when he enters or leaves a scene. The same goes for most other CE characters. No presence. Kamille has positive and negative traits. Kira is just a plastic doll that cries sometimes.

Quote:
Sort of like how in Zeta they just added a bunch of people hitting each other and hoped people would mistake it for drama?


They add the hitting because it make sense for bullies and a**holes to do that to people. It's not meant to be any sort of drama, it's the behavior of some characters that emphasizes their attitudes.

Granted, they do go a little overboard at times. I never said the show was flawless.

penguintruth wrote:
Funny how it's 'retarded' for somebody else to do this but not you.


I think you're misinterpreting my intentions.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
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Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:40 am Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
Because Kamille has a personality, for one. It's not particularly likable, but it exists. Kira is just a robot Amuro Ray, who barely makes an impression when he enters or leaves a scene. The same goes for most other CE characters. No presence. Kamille has positive and negative traits. Kira is just a plastic doll that cries sometimes.


Be specific. In what manner does Kamille have such a personality? It seems to me that's he's no different than Kira except he's generally pissed off instead of upset.

Also, even if you consider SEED's characters to be lacking in personality, I still don't understand how this makes their behavior more melodramatic or less realistic and appropriate. Fine, criticize the series for it's lack of personality but why claim it's too melodramatic?

penguintruth wrote:
I think you're misinterpreting my intentions.


That's a very convenient way of dismissing my criticism without actually addressing it in any way.
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:45 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
why claim it's too melodramatic?


You're right. I shouldn't say "Gundam SEED is melodramatic". Melodrama assumes there's any sort of drama, and drama would be flavor. SEED doesn't even have melodrama, that would imply the staff put forward something resembling effort into the show. It's clearly a hallow shell of a series, so it can't be melodramatic.

And Kamille has a full personality. He's angry a lot, yes, but with good reason, for one. He's also smug sometimes, happy other times, excited, sad, lonely, heartbroken. He has a certain charm to him, a liveliness I found lacking in many of the characters in SEED and its sequel.

In other words, Kamille isn't boring.

Kira seems to have this one uniform expression and motivation the entirety of SEED. He's a soulless husk. I haven't seen such a dull main protagonist since... well, since Loran from Turn A Gundam, actually. But Turn A Gundam at least had a lot of other charismatic characters to compensate. (That, and Romi Paku's voice at least gave Loran a little bit of spirit.) With SEED, I can barely recall that many stand out characters.

Mu, perhaps. Yzak. Andrew Waltfield, until he became Lacus' lackey. Flay. Most everyone else just sort of blended together.

penguintruth wrote:
That's a very convenient way of dismissing my criticism without actually addressing it in any way.


What was your criticism, exactly?

I came into the thread as my favorite Gundam series was taking what I felt to be a lot of undue criticism and being compared to a series I felt was far inferior to it. If somebody is going to use this thread as a guide for what Gundam series to watch, I want them to get more points of view.
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Stellarleen



Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 75
Location: Tokyo
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:34 am Reply with quote
Wow, this is quite the debate I stumbled into here! Well the fact that you guys (or girls?) are so passionate about Gundam makes me want to get into it more.

I myself was a complete Gundam noob until a few weeks ago! At that time I randomly selected Gundam Wing to start myself off and I'm about 30 episodes in now. I wouldn't say it's a masterpiece by any means but I like the angsty teens and their beloved robots so it's enough to make me want to watch another Gundam series after this one. After reading this thread I've decided Gundam 00 will be my next. Thanks for all the Gundam love and knowledge everyone! Anime hyper
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:35 am Reply with quote
Stellarleen wrote:
After reading this thread I've decided Gundam 00 will be my next. Thanks for all the Gundam love and knowledge everyone! Anime hyper


You're welcome. Although I strongly believe in my opinions, I really don't mind if, after hearing what I had to say, people decide to go for a series in the franchise that I hate. Because at the end of the day, newcomers to the Gundam fandom should be treated warmly no matter which titles they want to watch. We may all have our personal preferences, but we're all still Gundam fans.

So yes, Stellarleen, welcome to the family. That's right, a family. Even though we bicker a lot you shouldn't take that at face value, because we still love one another despite our disagreements. Right, brother penguintruth?
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:56 am Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
You're right. I shouldn't say "Gundam SEED is melodramatic". Melodrama assumes there's any sort of drama, and drama would be flavor. SEED doesn't even have melodrama, that would imply the staff put forward something resembling effort into the show. It's clearly a hallow shell of a series, so it can't be melodramatic.


Okay see, I certainly don't agree with this view but it at least seems like a plausible criticism. If you found SEED hollow or dull, I'm happy to agree to disagree. Again, I just don't like when people seem to single it out for the exact same thing found in many other Gundam series.

penguintruth wrote:
I came into the thread as my favorite Gundam series was taking what I felt to be a lot of undue criticism and being compared to a series I felt was far inferior to it. If somebody is going to use this thread as a guide for what Gundam series to watch, I want them to get more points of view.


Yeah, and that's fine. You're certainly free to explain your opinion. I just thought it was awfully hypocritical when you started to move away from opinion and towards stating things as fact and suggesting those who disagreed were mistaken.
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:22 pm Reply with quote
Damn your diplomacy. Now I can't be angry. :p

All right, we've probably got one of those fundamental differences of opinion that nobody is going to budge on.

If the point is to give Gundam newbies different points of view on different titles to guide them, I suppose it doesn't do any good to quibble like we've been doing. I'll try to rein myself in a little better when it comes to arguing about Gundam.
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KLAC
Exempt from Grammar Rules


Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 1122
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:28 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
KLAC wrote:
yet also another reason is lacus besides the way she sound in english voice chantal strand is by far most rare & unique voice of this generation.


What are you, her agent? She's a mediocre voice talent at best.


oh come besides i just like way she sounded really besides when GS was dub in 04 she was 16 & yet lacus was 16 in GS now rare find both character & voice dubber have same age then again in GSD at 18 really strand is by far one of the best voices of this generation.

yet she only 22 & really only matter till she doing main characters voices besides i've been on thinking to have her voice a main female gundam pilot (a female version of the amuro, kira, set-light) really she is just something.
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