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ABetterTimeandPlace



Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:46 pm Reply with quote
pparker wrote:
It's very easy to criticize those actions in retrospect, but it's rather silly in fact to do so.


"Silly in fact"? Criticism is how an industry matures and grows. Ignoring mistakes and perpetuating them is how it declines.
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Dolza



Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 81
Location: Chicagoland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:46 pm Reply with quote
Good show! For me, it was great to hear all the stories of "how it all happened" from the man himself.
I knew as soon as I saw the title of the Podcast that the talkback forum would be fun! (If not on fire.)
I have mixed feelings about the argument/discussion over the dub/sub thing and the alteration of stories for market value purposes. Without the influence of Robotech, I know that I would not be an anime fan. So I thank Carl for that, and just let the rest go.
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pparker



Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 1185
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:14 pm Reply with quote
ABetterTimeandPlace wrote:
pparker wrote:
It's very easy to criticize those actions in retrospect, but it's rather silly in fact to do so.

"Silly in fact"? Criticism is how an industry matures and grows. Ignoring mistakes and perpetuating them is how it declines.

You're twisting my point. I don't know penguintruth, but I doubt his influence on the anime market. Obviously an industry learns from mistakes, like any other "organism". My point was that a rabid anti-fan sitting here in 2009 and criticizing decisions made by someone 20 years ago who helped pioneer an industry isn't advancing anything. He's just attacking an individual for the decisions they made that he doesn't like.

In terms of learning from the past, that goes both ways. From a business and industry standpoint, the most interesting was this: Apparently, nearly everything the guy touched made a profit. He described how a market was methodically built according to recognized principles prior to release of movies that then did better in most cases than movies released today. Where did that knowledge go? Did anyone learn from that? Apparently not. Not to say what happened subsequently was "wrong". A lot of money changed hands, supporting a lot of people, and lots of anime got into consumer hands. More than if the market had been built his way.

Yet that growth wasn't sustainable and resources were wasted--and more importantly a lot of false feedback came from a delusionary market, which made a contribution to the state of anime today to some degree. What's better? Who knows. Out of all the anime released here in the 2000's, not much is "evergreen". But in any case, if I'm considering entering the anime market today, I'm sure putting his methodology at the top of the list for consideration in my strategy meetings.
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 5984
Location: Penguinopolis

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:25 pm Reply with quote
pparker wrote:
ABetterTimeandPlace wrote:
pparker wrote:
It's very easy to criticize those actions in retrospect, but it's rather silly in fact to do so.

"Silly in fact"? Criticism is how an industry matures and grows. Ignoring mistakes and perpetuating them is how it declines.

You're twisting my point. I don't know penguintruth, but I doubt his influence on the anime market. Obviously an industry learns from mistakes, like any other "organism". My point was that a rabid anti-fan sitting here in 2009 and criticizing decisions made by someone 20 years ago who helped pioneer an industry isn't advancing anything. He's just attacking an individual for the decisions they made that he doesn't like.


It's not my job to advance the industry. I'm not in the industry.

I'm not attacking his decisions, so much as I'm attacking his attitude. He had the gall to call himself a "storyteller". And like I said before, there were a lot of other people who were out there before him making the most of anime. A little show called Starblazers was a pretty big hit before Robotech came to be.

The only decision I'm attacking is his terrible Dunbine dub. An anime licensed after the mid nineties deserved better than it got. You can't put that dub on the shelves with the likes of Cowboy Bebop, Outlaw Star, or even Excel Saga. Travesty dubs should be a thing of the past.

(The funny thing is, Carl Macek and I are probably the only two people who give a damn about Dunbine.)
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pparker



Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 1185
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:59 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
And like I said before, there were a lot of other people who were out there before him making the most of anime. A little show called Starblazers was a pretty big hit before Robotech came to be.

Not a big deal, as you already acknowledged a bit of exaggeration in your first post, and doesn't matter. I have my own hot buttons. But I just didn't get the attitude that you perceived. It's my first time knowing anything about him (besides hearing his name used in vain on the Internet Wink), and if you're going off other material, then fine. If he hadn't mentioned previous shows, or had really claimed to have been solely responsible for anime in America, I could see the reaction. From what I heard, he told what he did and credited others where appropriate.

But really it's not worth arguing. I just have a soft spot for get-it-done-somehow pioneers, warts and all, similar to my admiration for artists, so take my response in that context.
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edzieba



Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 704

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:46 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
(The funny thing is, Carl Macek and I are probably the only two people who give a damn about Dunbine.)
Probably because even getting a hold of it is nigh-impossible.

I'm reminded of the interview LRR did with Uwe Boll. He's a smart businessman, he enjoys his work, but that doesn't make any of his films any less terrible.
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FaytLein
Collector ExtraordinaireCollector Extraordinaire


Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:03 pm Reply with quote
Ah, Carl Macek, source of much internet rage interviewed on ANN. Now, I'll be upfront and say Mr. Macek's work isn't exactly my cup of tea, and while the reports of him being a collossal jerk seem to be a gross overstatement, I can kinda see in just the way he talks that there is a hint of arrogance in his part, which due to his impact in the anime world is at least justifable.

Now, I'm a pragmatic thinker, something Mr. Macek said grabbed my attention. Streamline made money with every one of their releases. Robotech sold more than Evangelion. Now then, if Streamline and Mr. Macek were that successful, at least comparing them to all the other companies before and since, why didn't anyone attempt to grab him at least for a short while, or in some limited capacity to help at least lay down the foundation and set up practices for success in the future? Was he too pricey to pick up? Did he want to distance himself from other companies? Or was ever exec just plain stupid? Or too full of themselves to look for outside help? Its very confusing.

Also, is it just me, or when Mr. Macek uses the word "fan" does it seem to be a dirty word for him?
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 12559

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:24 pm Reply with quote
ABTAP:
Quote:
but one who takes creative credit that is not necessarily all his.


I like how they claim that he wasn't creative, even though the Japanese later used his idea of giving Max and Miriya a daughter.

penguin: Actually, I remember seeing Fred and Carl together back when Fred was promoting "Dreamland Japan" in L.A. And why would anyone think what Peter Fernandez did helped the medium? He dumbed down an animated series which already had Western appeal, while Sandy Frank tried to turn Gatchman into a Star Wars cash-in. Macek actually tried to create a market for more mature animated content on American tv, which was a helluva lot riskier back then, and which, judging by Fascist Kids' edits, is still ahead of its time. I will give the peeps at Voyager credit, and I hope ANN gets to talk to them one of these days, too, but Robotech was the first anime which not only proved successful on tv but became a merchandising phenomenon to this day. As for Dunbine, I hadn't heard the dub, or the original, for that matter, but it sounds like a hoakey show in general in which a "good" dub would make it sound worse.
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PetrifiedJello



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:39 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
It's not my job to advance the industry. I'm not in the industry.

May I ask why you feel this way, consumer? Like it or not, you're in the industry. Your "job" is to purchase and provide feedback, and I'm pretty sure you've done both with posts I've read of yours.

Every company makes its fair share of mistakes and there's no such thing as perfection. Sales are key, but so is feedback, and without the support of its customers, there is no longer a need for the professional services of the remainder of the industry.

In 20+ years of watching anime, I have watched this industry (both business and fans) change. Most for the better, and some for the worst (usually leading to catastrophic failure).

Even today, the industry is adapting and changing to not only market conditions and technology, but fans' demands. We're now in what I believe the toughest years for anime until there's a balance between costs and meeting consumer expectations.

With the internet's ability to distribute content within minutes, consumers are changing their spending habits, providing less feedback, all the while pretending the responsibility belongs to someone else to expand anime.

I've no clue who Macek is, but I'm about to learn a little more about him once I listen to the podcast. But from my position, it sounds like he's an innovator who takes chances, even if they didn't turn out so great.

Probably picked up a few ideas from this unknown named George Lucas.
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ABetterTimeandPlace



Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:51 pm Reply with quote
pparker wrote:
ABetterTimeandPlace wrote:
pparker wrote:
It's very easy to criticize those actions in retrospect, but it's rather silly in fact to do so.

"Silly in fact"? Criticism is how an industry matures and grows. Ignoring mistakes and perpetuating them is how it declines.

You're twisting my point. I don't know penguintruth, but I doubt his influence on the anime market. Obviously an industry learns from mistakes, like any other "organism". My point was that a rabid anti-fan sitting here in 2009 and criticizing decisions made by someone 20 years ago who helped pioneer an industry isn't advancing anything. He's just attacking an individual for the decisions they made that he doesn't like.


A line has to be drawn at personal attacks, but a criticism of decisions, especially business decisions, is quite valid. Lessons can still be learned 20 years later. It is precisely the decisions that are forgotten that are too often repeated.

Quote:
In terms of learning from the past, that goes both ways. From a business and industry standpoint, the most interesting was this: Apparently, nearly everything the guy touched made a profit.


Not true.
Robotech the Movie
Captain Harlock and the Queen of a Thousand Years
- In other words, both Captain Harlock and Queen Millennia
Robotech II: The Sentinels
Robotech 3000
Aura Battle Dunbine
Computer Warriors
Divergence Eve
Lady Death

Quote:
Out of all the anime released here in the 2000's, not much is "evergreen".


An entire shelf of Ghibli DVDs
The Girl Who Leapt Through Time
Paprika and everything else from Satoshi Kon
5 Centimeters Per Second and everything else from Makoto Shinkai
Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence
Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex: Solid State Society
New Evangelion films


Afro Samurai
Appleseed
The Animatrix
Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children
Highlander: The Search for Vengeance
Batman: Gotham Knight
Pokemon
Naruto
Yu-Gi-Oh

The idea that the decade with Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Naruto, and wide releases of Ghibli films doesn't have evergreen titles is ludicrous. Some of us may not like some of these titles, but that doesn't mean that they aren't perennial titles for casual fans. Many are even mainstream titles.
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ABetterTimeandPlace



Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:03 pm Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:
ABTAP:
Quote:
but one who takes creative credit that is not necessarily all his.


I like how they claim that he wasn't creative, even though the Japanese later used his idea of giving Max and Miriya a daughter.


Macross gave Max and Milia a daughter in 1983. Robotech was produced in 1985.

Quote:
Robotech was the first anime which not only proved successful on tv but became a merchandising phenomenon to this day.


Voltron wasn't?
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ABetterTimeandPlace



Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:48 pm Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:
ABTAP: My point was that, without Harmony Gold, Macross might have ended up with some faceless corporation only out there to get some toy sales out of it, where the rights might have been stuck in licensing hell, like DYRL. In other words, it would not be subbed and uncut today.


Aren't we supposed to avoid entertaining unprovable speculation? For every DYRL and 7, there is a Macross Plus and Macross II anime that wasn't stuck in licensing hell. Actually, it was Harmony Gold who tried to stop Macross Plus toy sales in America in 1999 in an attempt to get profit off it, and that led to the current legal mess.

Quote:
And I've seen the subbed tape for Akira, and I did not notice any difference from the Geneon subs, other than the slang. In fact, the Geneon script was worse, because the company just had to insert some random joke about Tenchi Muyo in there. The Cagliostro print I've seen only had the names changed, as per the legal wrangling with the LeBlanc estate.


The Streamline Pictures subtitles for Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada--in other words, the vast majority of the subtitled anime that Streamline released in its short history--were there ones that were terribly inaccurate. Names changed from one episode to the next, and story concepts were mistranslated like "reflex." In other words, Streamline Pictures introduced into the original anime's subs some of the same errors that Harmony Gold put into Robotech.

Quote:
And the Nue/Tatsunoko tension out-dates HG's own assertion of its Robotech copyright.


The lawsuit began in 2000 as a direct aftermath of Harmony Gold's demand to everything with the name Macross on it outside Japan in 1999. Before that, Studio Nue and Big West were making and exporting Macross Plus and Macross II without interference from Tatsunoko or Harmony Gold.

Quote:
Charred Knight: I've seen all the original shows and Robotech, and I seriously do not notice a significant difference in the content.


There was an entire episode recycled from other episodes' footage and inconsistent dialogue made from scratch. Dialogue in one Robotech episode would not only contradict the original anime's dialogue, but dialogue in another Robotech episode. A key story term in one show was completely rewritten based on two different elements from the other two shows, altering the main impetuses of all three series. Motivations of characters and an entire race were changed, and dialogue and plot goofs were added. A narrator either spoils plot surprises ("Little did he know...") or is downright wrong ("she is carefully placed..." as a character is falls onto a tree and the ground with shattered glass).

Earlier in this thread, Renaisance Otaku gave a good description of how Robotech completely altered the ending of Macross from one of peaceful colonization to a preemptive war strike.

Quote:
Renaissance:
Quote:
The very message in the show about how war brings nothing but destruction was pretty much written out since the "wars" had to continue.


But the Japanese version ends up going in the same direction with the added episodes, anyway.


Renaisance Otaku was refering to the last of the final Macross episodes. Robotech was leading its story towards a different direction by splicing another anime's footage into those final Macross episodes and rewriting the series finale.
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jsevakis
ANN Director of New Media


Joined: 28 Jul 2003
Posts: 1530
Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:16 pm Reply with quote
FaytLein wrote:
Also, is it just me, or when Mr. Macek uses the word "fan" does it seem to be a dirty word for him?


It's not just you. He didn't want to talk about it, but some his past run-ins with the fan community have been, at best, terrifying, and at worst, criminal. Some people took their love of Macross waaaaaaay too far back in the day.
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 5984
Location: Penguinopolis

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:41 pm Reply with quote
PetrifiedJello wrote:
penguintruth wrote:
It's not my job to advance the industry. I'm not in the industry.

May I ask why you feel this way, consumer? Like it or not, you're in the industry. Your "job" is to purchase and provide feedback, and I'm pretty sure you've done both with posts I've read of yours.


True, to an extent, but I can't be expected to come up with some magical plan to save the industry, I can only give my feedback on the products as given. Clearly, this is what I've been doing for decades.

But as we see with ADV, simply having passion for something does not necessarily make you good at marketing it.

I still wouldn't trust Macek to do it, though. Not in this day and age, when people have standards for their products. I certainly didn't appreciate his implying that ADV should have respected him more.


Last edited by penguintruth on Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Badkarma 1



Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 21
Location: East St. Louis Il.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:48 pm Reply with quote
Great show guys! Despite all the shrapnel and fallout from penguinoftruth(oxymoron?probably!)I would just like to say that the current anime industry COULD LEARN a thing or two if they listened to Mr.Macek! I have no axe to grind here,as I too have seen many of those oldies and YES they DID start 'the ball rolling'. Also as a fan I fell I must now take my Otaku sign down after seeing the rabid assasination attempt on Mr.Macek by my fellow fans! You should be ashamed of yourselves!!
Evil or Very Mad
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