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Hey, Answerman! - Touchy Subjects


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fmagrave



Joined: 21 May 2008
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:18 am Reply with quote
Gunslinger Girls had a sexual subtext?
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garfield15



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 1361

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:30 am Reply with quote
Quote:
You mention the word "fandom" a lot in this question, and I'll just get that part out of the way: I kind of hate the word "fandom." It sort of implies, to me at least, a certain set of traits and characteristics you are "meant" to embody if you enjoy a piece of genre entertainment, rather than just enjoying the work on its own merits.

I love you right now.
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gingi789



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am Reply with quote
I saw that "I lost the game" thing at AX, too. What is that?
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ZakuAce



Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 521
Location: Platteville WI

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:54 am Reply with quote
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how else are they going to see actual live breasts? On a real live lady? In person?


Thanks for the laugh Answerman. Also, terrific flake video Laughing
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gwern



Joined: 05 Nov 2009
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:35 am Reply with quote
fmagrave wrote:
Gunslinger Girls had a sexual subtext?


Very droll. (But if you're serious - the murder-suicide arc was totally laden with subtext, to name just one.)

> Are you serious no more than 20 people came to see Masao Muruyama? And you wonder why no Japanese guests want to come to anime conventions anymore!

Who the heck is Masao Muruyama? The link only mentions him only as involved with _Vampire Hunter D_ as... a producer.

You'll pardon me if I don't get my knickers in a bunch. That 20 people came to see him is fairly impressive.

(Now, if it had been Eva... maybe that might be a sign of decline.)
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 9519
Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:55 am Reply with quote
fmagrave wrote:
Gunslinger Girls had a sexual subtext?

IIRC the very first prototype of Gunslinger Girl was a dōjinshi with spoiler[Henrietta and Giuseppe had sex in the end.]
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Penguin_Factory



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Ireland

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:24 am Reply with quote
What's this? A reasoned, intelligent discussion of lolicon? Someone check the temperature in hell.

I always thought that the characters in Gunslinger Girl were at least partially exploitative. There's nothing wrong with having young female characters in a story (obviously) and there's nothing wrong with portraying them as assasins. Having Henrietta run around in a school uniform for no reason strikes me as blatent pandering, however.

To me this is similar to the deal with female superheroes in comics- having women in spandex fighting crime is cool. Giving them cleavage-exposing costumes for no reason is crossing the line.

dormcat wrote:

IIRC the very first prototype of Gunslinger Girl was a dōjinshi with spoiler[Henrietta and Giuseppe had sex in the end.]


I didn't actually know this for sure when I saw the show, but my first thought about the guy was that he seemed as bland and two-dimensional as a hentai protagonist. I guess this is why Confused
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Mistmanov



Joined: 27 Feb 2009
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Location: Belgium

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:07 am Reply with quote
On the subject of tastefully inserting your own sexual fetishes into anime... I'm reminded of the "fact" (according to wikipedia..) that one of The Matrix's directors is into BDSM (or at least.. he started living with a dominatrix). Which explains all the cool leather clothes that people wear while inside the Matrix. Which shows that, when done well, you can indeed make a movie "sexy" for you, while other people don't notice the sexual elements.

Now, whether you should insert those "sexy" elements is another questions, especially when your dealing with fetishes that, when performed in real life, would be illegal. But that question has probably been debated to death (with the main issue being: is watching/making imagery of criminal acts more or less likely to make you perform those acts? I really have no idea)
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edzieba



Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 704

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:20 am Reply with quote
fmagrave wrote:
Gunslinger Girls had a sexual subtext?
Ditto. I watched it before hearing anything that internets had to say about it. First time I heard someone complaining that it was 'a lolicon show' I had to go and google and see if there was another show with the same name. It seems like a show can't even have female characters under the age of 20 without being labelled as pandering to the lolicon crowd. For example:
Penguin_Factory wrote:
Having Henrietta run around in a school uniform for no reason strikes me as blatent pandering, however.
A schoolgirl wearing a school uniform is pandering?
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PetrifiedJello



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 3782

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:11 am Reply with quote
fmagrave wrote:
Gunslinger Girls had a sexual subtext?

What anime series doesn't have a sexual subtext.

If one looks hard enough, anime can substantiate any belief, such as terrorism.

Ignorance spreads faster than truth and the internet certainly makes it easier and faster.
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shamisen the great



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 521

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:16 am Reply with quote
I wonder how long before this thread turns into another lolicon debate.
I'm long past the point where anything shocks me anymore. I don't know if its that I'm open minded or I've just become desensitized( probaly the latter), but I think even shows with that "ick factor" have merit. Arguing whether something has literary value is irrelevant. We all value different things. If someone enjoys a show it has value; even if others might find it distastful.
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Zin5ki



Joined: 06 Jan 2008
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Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:19 am Reply with quote
From the first question:
Quote:
But it also raises the question: what's the literary justification of the sexualized portrayal of young women, and when does it cross the line into bad taste or being outright offensive? Is it dependent on the quality of the work?

The issue of whether or not a work's quality excuses certain content of which one disapproves is perhaps a confused one. Rather than the presence of certain depictions being pardoned by the broader aesthetic appeal of the work in which it occurs, I presume it should be the case that this aesthetic appeal would instead be partially constituted by, and hence dependant upon, any such depictions.

That is to say, appealing to the work's quality — considering said quality as the most generalised account of the degree to which the subject favours it — is itself an account that is dependant upon the objectionable content, and not vice versa.

I do not wish to suggest that that one cannot appeal to the work's quality to excuse any offensive material though; one might note that, even though one's approval of the work marred by certain visually or morally upsetting images or themes, this approval is still somehow strong and vivacious, presumably in virtue of content aside that of which one disapproves.
Quote:
But is that proper justification, or is that even true given the admitted lolicon tendencies of its creator? Is it just because they're young girls and we're supposed to find them adorable, or is it because we're drawn to the character designs of Triela and Cleas … who have a lot of "moe" or otherwise attractive characteristics? Is THAT crossing the line?

Perhaps these characters were indeed designed to be responded to in an adoring fashion.
The matter of whether or not designing them in this manner "crosses the line" is most probably a moral one, given the circumstances in which they are depicted and the manner in which they appeal. In view of this, I fathom that complaints regarding the creator's attempt to elicit such responses in these circumstances are complaints of a non-aesthetic sort, and resultantly need be of little concern to those who enquire into the work's appeal itself.
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LemonCookies



Joined: 06 Apr 2010
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:35 am Reply with quote
Oh noes, a controversial subject?! Disregarding my apathy towards what the "Answerman" finds "icky" (and no one else should care either!), this statement really irks me: "compared to Kodomo no Jikan, which pretty much everybody agrees crosses the line." Crosses what line? Unless you have some facts to back this statement up, just shut the hell up. There are plenty of fans of the series who find nothing wrong with it, so stop projecting your own petty moral outrage.
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brand



Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:36 am Reply with quote
gwern wrote:

Who the heck is Masao Muruyama? The link only mentions him only as involved with _Vampire Hunter D_ as... a producer.

You'll pardon me if I don't get my knickers in a bunch. That 20 people came to see him is fairly impressive.


Because the link has the wrong guy it is this guy they are talking abut. He is one of the founders of Madhouse and the head producer.

Now, there were several panels he was involved in this year so people may have been spread out over the con. I went to the first Madhouse panel they had this year and 20 people seems like low balling it. Sure it didn't pack a room but I've gone to his panel in years past and been one of 5 people in the room, so it seems something is working.

Sure, it would be cool if more people came to see him (he doesn't seem to mind this was his 8th Otakon and his 1st as honorary staff), but a lot of people don't care about the inner workings of anime. They just want to have a good time and that is just fine. For those of us to want to know more that is what these panels are for.

Oh, and in my point of view if you don't like the rave just don't go to it. I know such an amazing concept! I have had no interest in dancing with smelly/sweaty otaku so I have just never gone in the 10 years I have been going to cons. But if people want to dance with other nerd hey go have a good time while I do something else.


Last edited by brand on Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:26 am; edited 2 times in total
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Daimao Raki



Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 587
Location: Dark Side of the Moon

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:08 am Reply with quote
gingi789 wrote:
I saw that "I lost the game" thing at AX, too. What is that?
I have no idea.
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