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NEWS: LA Times Article on Fansubs


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kusanagi-sama



Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1689
Location: Wichita Falls, TX

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:34 pm Reply with quote
Interesting article. Fansubbers is mispelled, it needs an extra b in it.
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Sir_Brass



Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 476
Location: Prescott, AZ

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:37 pm Reply with quote
Actually, the Geneon guy is wrong. more and more 'b' titles are being ignored because the anime market is GROWING and fans can be more picky, and most choose to NOT waste their money on 'b' titles they don't already like, and if they don't know much about the series, they'll ignore it and go after 'A' titles like FMA. It has nothing to do with fansub distribution (as in, fansub distribution HURTING sales of 'b' series), since most of the GOOD fansubber groups I've seen have stuck with the 'A' titles.
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Stueypark



Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 116

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:50 pm Reply with quote
So.... you have a better grasp of the anime industry than the entire industry? You oughta apply for a job.

It's known fasubs have hurt the industry, there's no denying the numbers. A number of series have sold more units of later volumes rather than early of first volumes (and Vol. 1 traditionally has best sales). This has to do with the fact that people already have the early episodes (on CD, or computer).

Taking a look at [this is a bittorrent site], there's fansubbers releasing nearly every title not already avaliable, be it A title, B title, a bunch of C & D quality ones on there too.

Wish I could have read the article though, but according to their site it is free... but only if you're already a subscriber.
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Tempest
ANN Publisher & CEO


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:01 pm Reply with quote
Sir_Brass wrote:
Actually, the Geneon guy is wrong.


Hmm, yes. Chad who's an Anime fan, has been working in the industry from the early 90s (or perhaps late 80s), has an MBA and now works in "Strategic Market Research" at Geneon has it wrong.

And you (credentials unknown) knows the truth.

You actually have a valid point to make, but perhaps you should say that you "suspect" he's wrong, or disagree with him?

...

I'm always reminded of ADV's initial release of Nuku Nuku, the first 2 volumes, which had been fansubbed, didn't sell very well, but the 3rd volume, which had never been fansubbed, sold much better. That of course was a couple years ago, when fansubs were significantly harder to get a hold of.

To be blunt, I think you have a point. Market saturation surely is having an affect on the sales of "B" titles.

But at the same time, I think fansubs are also hurting sales. As I've said many times before, you might be ethical, but there are lots of people out there that use fansubs to save money.

Chad was being interviewed about fansubs, not market saturation, and not sales. So any talk about sales or market saturation, outside of the context of fansubs would have been off topic and would have been edited out of the article.

-t
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s_j



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 162

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:03 pm Reply with quote
Sir_Brass wrote:
It has nothing to do with fansub distribution (as in, fansub distribution HURTING sales of 'b' series), since most of the GOOD fansubber groups I've seen have stuck with the 'A' titles.


I thought the fansubber credo was to promote the lesser known anime titles, not to sub licensed 'A' titles like FMA that would sell gangbusters no matter what. Rolling Eyes
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cyrax777



Joined: 05 Mar 2003
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Location: the desert

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:09 pm Reply with quote
Quote:

The content you requested is reserved for calendarlive.com members only.
Membership is FREE for Los Angeles Times
7-day newspaper subscribers.*
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Sir_Brass



Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 476
Location: Prescott, AZ

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:12 pm Reply with quote
I should have said "I THINK that geneon guy is wrong." see, he spoke in speculation. Now, if he had said something that indicated that he KNEW fansubs were the reason behind the sales loss of the 'b' titles, then I wouldn't have said what I did, because he is in the industry and I am not.

Also, fansubbers sub the shows that they feel are going to be interesting. No one wants to waste their time on some title that looks like it's going to suck.

Also, I feel that those who dl fansubs with no intention of buying the series when it comes out on R1 DVD wouldn't buy the DVDs ANYWAY if they weren't able to get the fansubs. Thus they present NO loss to a company whatsoever since the company wasn't going to get their business in the first place.

Now, I'm going to leave it at that and ask that no one comment on the above paragraph and make this into a fansub vs. anti-fansub arguement. I don't want this thread locked. I'm just stating my position on the issue.

I think that the 'A' titles are bigger hits because of the fansub exposure. It gets the smaller fansub-viewer base who DOES buy DVDs hyped, and they spread the excitement to those who only buy DVDs. Those people who only get the DVDs thus see the excitement from these fellow experienced anime fans and think "hey, looks like this series may be worth my money." Thus comes about the big successes. Now, I'm not saying that fansubs are totally responsible for successes like FMA (because FMA does promote itself due to its quality), but I feel the success wouldn't be AS big if it weren't for the fansub viewers and fansubbers who saw the anime before the retail North American release.
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Tempest
ANN Publisher & CEO


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:13 pm Reply with quote
s_j wrote:
I thought the fansubber credo was to promote the lesser known anime titles, not to sub licensed 'A' titles like FMA that would sell gangbusters no matter what. Rolling Eyes


Yeah, that's the problem. Many fansubbers are more interested in the "A" titles like FMA. But its the "B" titles that need and deserve the attention of fansubbers, which is why I'm a fan of groups like Technogirls, and not the warez-monkey equivalents that sub Stand Alone Complex, Fullmetal Alchemist and Gundam Seed.

Or rather, I respect the people who sub the "C" titles. Not the really bad titles, but the ones that are under-exposed because they don't pander to some fetish and aren't ultra-cool.

Analyzing Chad's comments, I'd think he was suggesting that "A" titles are strong enough to sell well despite cheaper / free bootleg / fansub alternatives. "B" titles however, which are just as heavily fansubbed as "A" titles, might be decent shows, but they aren't strong enough to overcome the alternative market.

-t
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cyrax777



Joined: 05 Mar 2003
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Location: the desert

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:39 pm Reply with quote
atleast there are a few groups digisubbing some stuff that has hardly any chance of making it over. Such as Uncut Yamato tv,Harlock tv 1978, Touch Tv etc.

Problem is Fansubs have become a giant ego strock who can get it out fast, Doesnt matter what it is as long as they can get it out before the other guy. Like back before Naruto got Liscened there were about 5 english sub groups doing it.
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icepick314



Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 486
Location: Back in the Good Ol' US of A

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:46 pm Reply with quote
i think there are some truth to the fact that once people acquire entire series on fansub, they don't buy it on DVD...

it's like why waste money on something that I've watched already?

there ARE so many titles available so it's pick and choose for most people now...

i'm afraid that if that's the case, some titles may never get licensed due to the fact that they are less popular titles....

SOMEONE license Full Moon wo Sagashite and Starship Girl Yamamoto Yohko!!!!
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kusanagi-sama



Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1689
Location: Wichita Falls, TX

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:50 pm Reply with quote
icepick314 wrote:
i think there are some truth to the fact that once people acquire entire series on fansub, they don't buy it on DVD...

it's like why waste money on something that I've watched already?

there ARE so many titles available so it's pick and choose for most people now...

i'm afraid that if that's the case, some titles may never get licensed due to the fact that they are less popular titles....

SOMEONE license Full Moon wo Sagashite and Starship Girl Yamamoto Yohko!!!!


That's not entirely true. If I have an entire series on my hard drive and I've seen it, once it gets licensed, I delete it and buy the DVDs.
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Iron Chef



Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 487
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:10 pm Reply with quote
kusanagi-sama wrote:
That's not entirely true. If I have an entire series on my hard drive and I've seen it, once it gets licensed, I delete it and buy the DVDs.


See, kusanagi, I wish I could be the guy that you are. I'll keep my fansubs around until I wind up buying the DVDs of the shows I like (as in the case of SaiKano and Scrapped Princess). If I know I wouldn't want to watch a show again, I'll get rid of 'em usually right after I watch them (like what I'm doing with Mahoraba and Loveless). But I'm assuming there are a whole lot more people like me than there are like you. Bad me!
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darkhunter



Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 2992
Location: Los Angelas

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:18 pm Reply with quote
kusanagi-sama wrote:
icepick314 wrote:
i think there are some truth to the fact that once people acquire entire series on fansub, they don't buy it on DVD...

it's like why waste money on something that I've watched already?

there ARE so many titles available so it's pick and choose for most people now...

i'm afraid that if that's the case, some titles may never get licensed due to the fact that they are less popular titles....

SOMEONE license Full Moon wo Sagashite and Starship Girl Yamamoto Yohko!!!!


That's not entirely true. If I have an entire series on my hard drive and I've seen it, once it gets licensed, I delete it and buy the DVDs.


Wow good for you, but not everyone is like you.
There are countless people who just watch anime for free, I feel that there's more of those than the one that watch and then buy. I always get this question from my friends, "why do you waste money buying dvd when you can get it for free online". Also the fact that most fansubbers don't just fansub the first few episode for preview purposes.

It's funny that they bring FMA up. Even though it was license, fansubber continue to sub it. Ethnic? probably not, the demand by the leechers was too great. Also is it true that popular series in japan usually = popular series here in the U.S. FMA, Gundamn Seed, Naruto. Even without fansub, you can tell what series is really good stuff in japan, just pick up a newtype.

Also for the people that didn't plan on buying the dvd with or without fansubs, I don't think that give them the right to watch anime for free in the first place. I rather have less noob asking where to dl cowboy bebop, just so they can see it and see some real didicated fans that spend money on thier hobby. And hey, if anyone has the slighest intersted in anime, they would have check out at least one title and be hook. Think about it, if you didn't plan on buying dvd but you are intersted in japanese animation, would you not rent or buy at least one dvd to get your fix? It's too easy to say "oh they wouldn't have brought it in the first place", but that's not true.

Also Chad show up on this forum a few times, he's really helpful and know what he's talking.
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Steve007101



Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 165
Location: IL, USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:23 pm Reply with quote
Hm, this certainly is an interesting topic, opinions in just about every direction, that fan subbing hurts and/or helps the market. I agree with that, it can hurt and help the market depending on the situation.

It just depends, for example the previously stated "A" titles may already have all the publicity they need and usually do today, but that’s more the reason for fansubbers to sub them, which can also help spread awareness of them yet keep people from buying the DVDs. Still, it’s obviously the usual tendency of the fansubbers to sub what people like, what’s known and known to be good to people (plural), which applies to the fansubbers of course. So, naturally speaking they’re doing the big stuff most of the time and doing it first which is how it’s usually going to hurt the dub market more then help it. The dubbers have to face facts; this is the way it works so from a market standpoint they don’t have an overall positive view of fansubbers since for the most part they think that the fansubbers are causing the sales to go down. But that’s not true, the fansubbers are making it EASIER for the fans to get another copy of it which does cause misconception (keep in mind I’m still currently talking of the said “A” titles).

The fact of the matter is that it’s at the individual level so the fan subbers aren’t really to blame except that they’re usually not thinking of the dub marketing aspect of it when they do it which is expected, you have to realize that. The Fansubbers and the fans of the fansubbers are going to do this unless motivated otherwise, there’s no doubt that they’re giving people the chance to not get the DVDs and only get the fan subs which comes into psychology. Psychologically speaking, especially this generation I add, I think we will lean towards not wasting our money if we don’t' have to, on the other hand if we really like it we might buy the dubbed DVDs to be good and support the anime. Still, even though the situation does vary this is irrelevant because this can still be generalized overall to the dub market as a real, working threat.

The fansubbers are hurting the market more then helping, it’s just their tendency. To fight this the dubbers can do a few things, they first of all want the fansubbers to cease the making and distribution of the anime when licensed, because after all, they can be lawfully held accountable for it. It’ll be up to the dubbers to assert that opinion and also to encourage the fansubbers to do the animes that need the attention (which are the said “B-D” titles), which they won’t tend to do so it’s in the dubbers hands to change that if and when it can be helped, and I can definitely tell you that it can with the way it is now.

When the fan subbers are doing the “B-D” titles the dubbers have no problem but the fansubbers will just tend to do the “A” titles most of the time unless things are changed. So, sorry to say, the dubbers and fansubbers will be in conflict until things are resolved or quiet down enough to move out of concern, if they even really are now.


Last edited by Steve007101 on Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Aaron White
Old Regular


Joined: 23 Aug 2002
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:24 pm Reply with quote
Sir_Brass wrote:
Now, I'm going to leave it at that and ask that no one comment on the above paragraph and make this into a fansub vs. anti-fansub arguement. I don't want this thread locked. I'm just stating my position on the issue.


Tee-hee! "I insist that everybody give me the last word. I want to take a controversial position without the annoyance of being challenged on it."
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