Forum - View topicShelf Life - QB of the Year
|
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
EnigmaticSky
 Posts: 750 |
|
|||||
No actually, I first watched it knowing absolutely nothing aside from that a friend told me to, didn't care for it, and years later when it finally came to America I was like "Ok, maybe I just wasn't mature or willing to analyze enough to enjoy the show at the time. I feel like my tastes have changed and that it will be up my ally this time around." Felt exactly the same on the second viewing years later. I just think it's a very forced story that happens to have a pretty coat of paint. It's not bad in my opinion, it's just kinda... Eh. I guess the best I can explain it is that it feels like everything happens because the writer wants it to happen. i don't get the feeling that I'm absorbed into a world that has an organically developing story, I feel like I'm watching something and the writer decides that now is the time for the next big dark twist. It's just not my cup of tea. Never grabbed me. The third viewing of the series in the form of the compilation movies didn't change that. I understand your points, but I just didn't care for it. Although I have yet to watch Rebellion. Who knows? Maybe that will be the thing that turns me onto the series. I know everyone else hates it, but maybe it will be the one that I love. I mean I thought the series Evangelion was overall very good, but End of Evangellion really brought it all together into a great whole for me. |
||||||
|
||||||
Ali07
 Posts: 3333 Location: Victoria, Australia |
|
|||||
Gotta say, that was one of my favourites. Not the top one, but would say top 3. 
That is something I love too. But, as with many things, if your interpretation of it is different from someone else's...then you're "wrong".
|
||||||
|
||||||
Juno016
 Posts: 2394 |
|
|||||
Yeah. This might just be a case where the style of storytelling itself deters you from any enjoyment of the content. EVERYTHING in the series is deliberate. There is a particular message and a particular story Urobuchi wanted to tell and he wove every piece of fabric together in a way that made those points as clear as they could be (even if he wasn't really as concerned about how we, the audience, interpreted it all). Mami died at a particular point, both to whiplash the initial audience (as a hook to the audience) AND to present a dangerous reality of being a Magical Girl (as a warning to the remaining humans), but it is HUGELY important in giving Sayaka an incentive to back up her beliefs once she did become a Magical Girl. Thus, Mami's way of living her life spirals through Sayaka, who attaches it to her own justice to use in her clash against Kyouko, which reminds Kyouko of her past and eventually causes Kyouko to change upon Sayaka's own exit from the story, which helps her make a fatal decision that educates and inspires Madoka, alongside the knowledge of Homura's motives and sacrifice, to make a proper wish that gives meaning to all of the ways they each lived their lives. The story was not conceived on a chapter-to-chapter basis, which means none of it just... happens to explore things. It was all planned from the beginning. And if that's not your cup of tea, then so be it. That sounds like a reasonable argument to me. =3 |
||||||
|
||||||
Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
|
|||||
|
What themes? I have only seen Madoka solve the problem with the power of luck. I guess that Homura time travelled so many times that she was bound to eventually bump into a time-line where Madoka makes a useful wish.
|
||||||
|
||||||
|
Akane the Catgirl
Posts: 1091 Location: LA, Baby! |
|
|||||
|
^ Here's my interpretation of the themes of the Madoka-coming-of-age side story in Madoka. I'm doing this based on my interpretation that this show has no main character, and is more of an ensemble cast. SPOILERS!
spoiler[Madoka starts the story as a Girl. She's reached that time in her life where she needs to start thinking about the future. She's got two loving parents (one of them being a confident office lady), an adorable baby brother, and two best friends to guide her. Still, she has doubts about herself and her role in life, as well as near non-existent self esteem. When she meets Mami, Madoka is impressed. Mami is so awesome! She's beautiful and talented and everything a proper woman should be! Mami takes on the role of mentor as she guides Madoka and Mami through the world of magical girls. Boy howdy, thinks Madoka, this sure sounds like something I'd do! Then Episode Three happens. Madoka is forced to realize that maybe the magical girl system isn't that great. Things get worse when her best friend impulsively makes a wish under the pretension of selflessness and heroism. Still, Madoka plays the role of the heart cheerleader. Sayaka needs her, after all, and Sayaka herself is hinted to be somewhat emotionally unstable. Of course, Sayaka's mental health goes down the toilet, and Madoka is helpless to stop her. Another magical girl named Kyouko enlisted Madoka's help to stop what used to be the latter's best friend, as a last resort in attempting to turn Sayaka back to normal. Of course, it fails, and Homura steps in to save Madoka while Kyouko goes out in a suicide attack. So now Madoka has lost a mentor, her best friend, and a newly-made friend within about a month. She's no longer ignorant and naive. Our heroine has learned about the cruelty of the system, and that maybe there are no good guys or bad guys in this horrible situation. Worse, the world's doomed to end within a few days, and Madoka has enough karmic potential to bring forth said end, no thanks to Homura's own selfish love. What to do? Well, after a little "talk" with Kyubey, Madoka comes to a decision. She won't make the same mistakes Mami, Sayaka, and Kyouko did. She won't hide under the labels of "justice" or "selflessness" with ulterior motives. Yes, Madoka has a wish in mind, and she's learned to become more honest with what she really wants, unlike her fallen friends. So she heads over to the battle between Walpurgisnacht and a near-dead Homura, and makes her Big Damn Wish; destroy every Witch- past, present, and future- with her own hands. Due to all that karma and the very nature of her wish, she transcends time and space to become the very antithesis of her enemies- hope. However, in order to have always existed as hope, she needs to stop existing as Madoka Kaname. And so, our adorable heroine has become a Woman. Better, she has become Magical Girl Jesus. The coming-of-age story is complete. The end.] Well, that's my take, anyway. But who I am to judge? According to some of you, I'm just a stupid fanbrat who mindlessly indulges in some random Japanese writer's stuff and overanalyzes everything. Right? |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Aylinn
Posts: 1684 |
|
|||||
|
Yeah, Madoka learnt about the situation, but it is not due to her growing up. She only learns about the situation, because Homura stops her from making a contract with Kyubey early, so she is given enough time to realize what is going on. It’s not even due to her active effort to get to know what is going on. It would have counted as growing up if Madoka realized why her early attempts at helping failed and what in her behavior, way of reacting she must change to be successful. That would demand from Madoka enough self-reflection to realize that her attempts were hasty and impulsive to the point of putting her/her friends in jeopardy.
There is also another problem. As I understand, Homura was in earlier timelines more eager to inform Madoka of the situation, so if Madoka was not ignorant of the situation in the earlier timelines, why did she fail in those timelines? Why didn’t she fail in the timeline presented in anime? Can it be explained by something different than she was lucky this time? As for Sayaka, the problem I have with her is that, had she wished for the boys love like she really wanted, I would still have questioned her decision to become a magical girl as sensible. Basically, I would like to know what made Sayaka think she can do better and last longer than Mami? From where her confidence and optimism was coming that she will not get killed within a month and have a shot at a long-term relationship? Was there anything behind it than just sheer naivety that everything will be ok? |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Akane the Catgirl
Posts: 1091 Location: LA, Baby! |
|
|||||
|
^ To answer your "why did Madoka fail in every other timeline" question", the answer's very simple; because it was too late. Madoka had already made her contract with Kyubey. From the information gathered, Madoka had been a magical girl since the week before Homura started attending school. By then, she was well on her way to despair itself, and unlike the main timeline, she had no way out.
So, in the current timelines, Homura's been ensuring that Kyubey and Madoka don't meet so that Madoka's still a normal girl by the time of the first day. Got it? As for Sayaka, my theory is that her motivation behind contracting is a mix of the "someone has to do it" mentality, and general impulsiveness. Mami died? Someone has to take up the post, might as well be me. Kyouko's being a meanie? Battle to the death, and I'm the hero! Sayaka's impulsive naivety and her hypocritical white knighting are what ultimately lead to her downfall. Now, concerning Madoka's status as main character, I wouldn't so much call her a main character at all. The term I use for her is "main viewpoint character", or MVC for short. In the setup this story is using, our main lead is used primarily to be an audience surrogate. Madoka is used to explore the magical girl system. Arguably, Homura's the true main character, with Madoka providing the POV and Homura driving the action. I don't mind this type of storytelling at all. To address your "the main character should be actively trying to discover the truth" mentality I've seen you argue before, here's my take on it. Would you want to find out these horrible, horrible things going on? Sometimes, the truth doesn't make things better. Sometimes, the truth can drive you to insanity. Look what it did to Mami in Episode 10. Honestly, Madoka herself seems to regret knowing about how the magical girl system works. (You know, seeing as it took away her innocence and all that.) Once again, just my opinion. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Aylinn
Posts: 1684 |
|
|||||
|
I didn’t mean the first timeline, but the timelines after the first and those before the one presented in anime.
I wouldn’t like them, but I think I would rather know what is going on to make an informed decision, the best possible in the situation than risk a failure, because I have not known about something crucial. As for Madoka’s passiveness, actually I don’t mind these kind of characters, but they have to do something that makes them interesting. In literature characters often do little, but attract with their wit, unique reflections, vivid accounts, etc. I cannot say that Madoka charms me with anything.
Well, yes, but my point is that had she asked for what she really wanted she would still, in all probability, get killed. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Akane the Catgirl
Posts: 1091 Location: LA, Baby! |
|
|||||
|
^ Well, in the third timeline we see, Madoka makes a specific request to Homura to prevent her from making a contract to begin with. We can assume from there that as soon as Madoka succeeds in making a contract with Kyubey, Homura uses her powers to go back in time and start over. At the end of Episode 11, Homura is about to make a leap again when she realizes that'll just make the problem even worse. That allows Madoka enough time to make the Big Damn Wish.
For Sayaka, at the very least, she stopped caring about her own life by the end of her arc. My theory is that her mindset going into the system was "Yeah, there's death and stuff, but I'm not going to end up like Mami! I'm the hero! I'm not like Mami at all! I'm not like those other girls!" That last part there is depressingly true to life when applied to other contexts. I'm not going to argue with the rest, because now we're getting into personal preference territory. Yeah, that's territory I've learned to avoid because it tends to get bad very quickly... |
||||||
|
||||||
|
ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3904 Location: CO |
|
|||||
I think where we're diverging is that you're taking my words literally, when I am speaking more symbolically. When you ask someone now, in 2014, to describe a magical girl, you will get a similar answer. Talking mascot, cute costume, magical powers, gung ho go-get-em attitude-- a mish-mash of decades of magical girl shows that end up being satirized in comics as a stereotypical Magical Poof Poof Kawaii-Chan-Hime character. Yes, there are many cases of magical girl shows where they did not fit the stereotype. But, at least in my interpretation of MM, that resemblance to magical girls is only superficial. Outwardly, the girls appear to be magical girls-- they have magical powers, they have frilly costumes, they have talking mascots-- but they're not even "girls." They're not even human (see: Sayaka arc). They're a superficial copy of magical girls, which symbolizes the idea of magical girls, and our consumerist taste for magical girls, but they are just transient shells meant to be spent and thrown away. So in that sense, I mean, yes, they are magical girls, technically, but my point is that that designation is only superficial, and part of the message. |
||||||
|
||||||
Tuor_of_Gondolin
 Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
|
|||||
|
Wow, Bamboo, that was deep. I suppose I should really watch PMMM, but it sounded kinda depressing (I have a general idea of what happens, but I've managed to avoid specific spoilers). Also, the guy who created it reminds me of George RR Martin in that he likes to troll you with the "hey, here's a common (fantasy) trope, but oh... your expectations are upended by the cruelness of the setting! See how gritty and clever I am!" It tends to annoy and/or depress me. And though it *can* be done well, it usually strikes me as a cheap trick.
Still, strangely enough I tend to like magic girl series, though the whole exploitive angle is a big turn off. |
||||||
|
||||||
kevinx59
 Posts: 959 Location: In sunny California |
|
|||||
|
Madoka for me was good, not great. I don't regret watching it, but its not something that I have any desire to rewatch. spoiler[It doesn't help that the character I liked the most, Mami, got killed off in episode 3. I also was disappointed that she didn't really have much of a backstory] I just didn't find the series entertaining: it was just too bleak and depressing for me. (Ironically, I enjoyed Wixoss, which reminded me a bit of Madoka when I watched it). I can understand why people like it, but for me it was just...there. Definitely not one of my favorites, but I don't hate it. I need to check out the third movie though. I may check out the compilation movies too, mostly cause if I like them it'll be cheaper to buy them than buying the whole series. Another more personal gripe is that I don't like Shaft and Shinbo's animation style, so that doesn't really help.
My friend has part 1 and part 2 LE's, but he's missing the last one ( and with the prices it's going for he'll probably never get it.). If you sold them, I'm pretty sure you'd have no trouble finding buyers. I hear good things about Nozoki-kun, but its never really caught my attention. I still haven't watched AoT, but I'll probably check it out one day. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Maokun
Posts: 53 |
|
|||||
First off, the kids in Madoka are more like real kids: intensely selfish even when they want to be "good". It is precisely because their naivety mixed with teenaged bravado and lack of understanding of their own motivations that QB preys on little girls and the sheer amount of resulting angst self-sustains the whole system. After a bit of analysis it's clear that the transformation into magical girls also transforms them into roles that reflect their inner wishes, which is reflected in their costumes and weapons. We didn't see much of Mami, but it was easy to see that she was a magical girl to find her place in a world that had abandoned her. The boasty self-righteousness, the subtle manipulating others to join her little club where she was role model and tutor, her dismissal of Homura for not adhering... Kyoko was similar, though she took the opposite attitude, that of a cynic, world-weary, live-by-her-own-rules anti-hero. Don't be fooled, Sayaka never thought that she could triumph where Mami failed, and though she seemingly started as the most selfless (resignedly adopting the role to fill the hole left by Mami so Madoka wouldn't have to do it and using her wish on someone who'd never even know to be thankful to her), the way she sours afterwards and abandons herself to her "duties" with a martyr's resolve hint at the true nature of her wishes. She became the tragic knight. Now, Himura was the most selfish of them all. She didn't care about anything else but "saving Madoka". Her life, the life of others, the destiny of the world... everything was fair game as long as her desire came true. At the beginning, that meant fighting along Madoka and making sure she survived/didn't turn into a Witch. When that proved fruitless, she tried to keep her ignorant and do it all by herself, which she knew was entirely useless. She became the antagonist with good intentions. It was a hard-headed and foolish approach that had the unintended, but ultimately pivotal effect of granting Madoka near-infinite karma. As for Madoka... up to the last two episodes, the series had been about everybody else, especially Sayaka and Himura, but the titular character. These characters' efforts, coupled with Madoka's natural disposition served to keep her sheltered, ignorant, and safe. So yeah, there was no room for growth... because she was already the most grown up of her friends; she just had no chance to show it before. That's why we get all those small moments with Madoka and her mother: Madoka had a privileged upbringing with a loving family, health, and wealth; things that in different measures were denied to others. As a result, she grew extremely naive and rather bland. However, she also gained perspective. When she finally gathered all the pieces of the puzzle she was able to understand the true nature of the problem: defeating Walpurgis, saving her friends, defending people from the witches... they were all small palliatives to the real issue. The system itself was corrupt and a paradigm shift was necessary. That's why after a series of non-stop action, tragedy and shocking revelations, episode 11 is nothing but quiet times with Madoka on her own. A time for her to understand the issue, to come up with an incredibly clever solution to end the whole thing, to acknowledge the terrible price she'd have to pay for it and to mentally say her goodbyes. It was not a moment of growth but of displaying her hidden potential. |
||||||
|
||||||
TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5842 Location: Virginia, United States |
|
|||||
|
I don't see the TV Homura as being selfish at all. Madoka gave her the Grief Seed to live, because she was the only one who knew the truth about the incubators, and who actually could do something about it. Homura did that as best as she could. Not only that, Homura had to mercy kill Madoka as she requested.
The way people talk about Homura, she might as well just gave a token effort and called it a day. God forbid she actually take Madoka's request seriously and honor her friend's dying request. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Maokun
Posts: 53 |
|
|||||
You misunderstand me. I never meant that she's evil or ill-intentioned, nor that her actions were useless or counterproductive to the greater good. My point is that she was obsessed. Obsessive behaviour, even one with inherent good intentions as Homura's is ultimately an exercise of one own's desires. And when I mention her selfishness (and the other characters') I am not being judgemental. They are personal flaws completely understandable in people of that age and of their (mostly) difficult upbringing! The issue is that selfishness was the oil that kept QB's cosmic machine running and prevented everyone but Madoka from understanding the root of the problem and taking the measures to destroy it. |
||||||
|
||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group