Forum - View topicAnswerman - Why Is Incest Such A Common Topic In Anime?
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Blanchimont
 Posts: 3453 Location: Finland |
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One is real life. The other is fiction. Please learn the difference between those two. And as for 'disgusting', taste is subjective, and your likes and dislikes are not necessarily others' likes or dislikes. Far from it. |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23807 |
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Valid point. But as you yourself point out, the trope is less prevalent in shoujo and BL. Rember, my theory is not meant to account for ALL interest in incest tropes, merely some of it. I don't discount the straight-up tabooness of it all as an attraction. @ relentlessflame - I take your point about how incestous relationships are difficult because of the negative reaction that others would have to it. However, remember, that a lot of these relationships are kept secret, at least for a chunk of time, so the negative societal reaction is not a factor. From an otaku point of view what is most important is that his stand-in character doesn't experience rejection from the object of his desire. The opprobium of others isn't as big a deal. I agree with your observation about the childhood friend trope. For me that is another example of a "relationship" coping mechanism. It would fulfil exactly the same function as the incest trope (minus the taboo titillation, of course). I also take your point about tsundere characters posing a possible counter to my theory, but consider that the whole appeal of the tsundere character is the otaku's sure knowledge that she eventually will turn sweet. You'll notice that tsun characters are much more rare and even when they do appear, it is almost never in the context of being involved in a possible relationship with the stand-in male character. @ Captn_Taylor - I don't think you are understanding my point. It's not that I think otaku have a fear of all women. I just think they might be more comfortable watching a scenario where the stand-in male character is dealing with a worshipful little sister as opposed to a kind of unknown female whose reaction to the character might be unpredictable (and therefore embarrassing). As mentioned above, the childhood friend character can also fulfil this "stress-relieving" function. |
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Shay Guy
 Posts: 2129 |
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The intersection between fantasy/wish-fulfillment and conflict-driven drama is an interesting one -- it's arguably at the heart of the bulk of genre fiction. I mean, is Re:Zero not "wish fulfillment" just because horrible things happen to Subaru and his friends? Is Batman's angst in conflict with the gadgetry, or is "I have EVERY RIGHT to be grumpy!" just the other side of the coin? Is the dystopia of Mad Max: Fury Road at odds with the cool explosions and the clearly defined enemy to shoot at? Are all those Harry Potter fics where Harry gets a harem and more-awesomer-than-thine magic powers any less wish-fulfillment because Dumbledore and the Weasleys end up being evil? (If you wanna stretch it, you could even include the question of Breaking Bad viewers seeing Walt as the hero, though that's probably off on a tangent. Maybe a tangent of a tangent.)
There's gotta be books on this dynamic. I've been reading Lajos Egri, and the question of how genre fiction (or other stories where the glamour of the setting or events is a draw) fits into his theories has been bugging me.
I'm a little surprised to hear that; Wikipedia's article doesn't mention incest at all. |
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Northlander
 Posts: 901 |
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That's one thing I remembered about Bunny Drop (due to spoiler[Rin counting the family links between her and Daikichi]); that marriage was allowed between family members as long as they were at least three family members apart (sort of.) Is there any truth to that? Which would make the cousin thing legal, since, as an example, you have someone -> their uncle or aunt - > said uncle's or aunt's brother or sister -> said brother or sister's child = three links.
This being very mathematical and analythical, of course, rather than having anything to do with my feelings on the subject. |
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13230 |
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And they purposely did that to prevent people from producing heirs. If a landowner died with no one next in line then the church got to claim the land. That's the thing about incest: while there is some naturally developed aversions to it, it's mostly a societal construct. It's called the "universal taboo" because all cultures have it in some form, but what actually counts as incest varies. A culture may only view maternal lineage to be real family, so father/daughter is fine because the father isn't recognised as being a relative. Even in the US some states consider cousin/cousin incest while others do not. So when talking about incest you have to first define what is considered incestuous. I'd be quite curious to learn what was considered incest back in old timey Japan if fathers could marry their daughters. They must have drawn the line somewhere. Personally if both parties consent I have no issue with it, both in 2D and 3D. They can even have kids if they want. While the risk of defects is higher it's not 100% (drastic abnormalities only happen after generations of inbreeding), and even if it was, disabled kids have the same right to be born as healthy kids. And while this might have been more of an issue in closed off communities, with our global community of 7 billion it won't harm our collective gene pool that much. I see such relationships no differently than inter-racial or same-sex couples. People freaked out about those before (and some still do) seemingly under the impression that if it was allowed them everyone would do it. If close relative relations were legalized it's not like everyone would go out and bang their sister just because they can. Westermark Effect is still very much a thing. If two estranged siblings meet as adults and fall in love, or if two people marry only to discover they're related then I say let them continue. |
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relentlessflame
Posts: 188 |
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I guess I just don't really get the premise. If we're talking about this sort of romantic fiction (in anime, light novels, visual novels, manga, etc.), then it really doesn't matter how much "rejection" the protagonist might experience in the story. The question is more about how the relationship arrives at its destination. You sort get at this point here:
This is the same regardless of the choice of main characters in a romantic story. You won't find very much romantic fiction that's about someone pursuing romance and getting constantly rejected by the main characters (except as a farce to cover up their true feelings), so this really is never that much of a risk no matter what archetype is used. I don't think most people will seek out or avoid certain types of romantic fiction because of their phobia of being rejected in real life. (Perhaps in spite of it?) I think the benefit of this sort of character setup is largely because it saves time in the world-building phase, as most archetypes do. There are established stereotypes and genre expectations that attract the established fanbase. It's also very easy to create drama and tension because of the inherent conflict of the taboo. I guess I don't really buy that this is all part of the "otaku psychosis" of not wanting to be rejected any more than any other character archetype in these works. In escapist fiction, regardless of what happens to the protagonist, the reader won't get rejected anyway. So, the fiction can tackle all sorts of relationship premises that, in real life, have little to no chance of being realistic or ever working out. In a broader sense I could agree that this is what a lot of anime (and related media) are about, but I don't think this particular theme would be singled out in any way. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23807 |
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@ relentlessflame: Actually it DOES matter how much rejection a protagonist might encounter in a work of romantic fiction. Want to know what an incredibly rare scenario in anime/manga is? It's a guy pursuing a girl he doesn't really know. It almost NEVER happens. What's WAY more common is a guy literally having to be hit over the head a hundred times before it finally dawns on him that doh! this girl might like me. Anime romance almost never deals with rejection. There are tons of examples of characters avoiding even the possibility of getting rejected. So no, I reject your contention that otaku are interested in seeing their stand-in characters struggle to win the hand of a female or that they have no emotional stake in whether the stand-in encounters static or not. They are much more comfortable when the "stress" is taken away because the object of desire is a younger sister, childhood friend or a female who has shown overwhelming interest.
I think you are under-estimating the impact that the experience of a stand-in character has on an otaku. Anime is almost unique in presenting boring male leads that otaku can easily inhabit as their stand-ins. What happens to those stand-ins is a lot more important, I believe, than in other escapist entertainment forms. |
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DerekL1963
Subscriber Posts: 1114 Location: Puget Sound |
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It doesn't for good reason - incest and inbreeding wasn't a factor in the haemophilia as 'the royal disease". Queen Victoria carried the gene for it, and passed it down to her (very, very) numerous royal offspring. On the other hand... there's the Hapsburg Jaw. |
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Jonny Mendes
 Posts: 997 Location: Europe |
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As someone that as been in Japan a couple of times let me tell you that the problem is not just about otaku. Many Japanese man are like that, even more now that Japanese woman are becoming more independent and self aware. Just talking about that with a Japanese girl friend of mine she complains that most boys in her past school didn't had many connections with the girls, preferring been and talking with other boys and talking about and worshiping idols. Onee-chan love also came from that avoidance of real girls friends preferring to fantasied about siblings. So is not only a otaku problem, is a men wide problem. |
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penguintruth
 Posts: 8461 Location: Penguinopolis |
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I thought it was just the taboo nature of incest in the abstract that attracted people to it. The idea of incest, rather than the real life practice. Forbidden love, etc.
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jr240483
 Posts: 4380 Location: New York City,New York,USA |
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personally i couldnt care less if its in an ero series or in real life (i have actual friends who are in that relationship and their the most nicest and most honest people i have known). its as the old saying "To each their own". however answerman, i wouldnt necessarily say its now a common place these days. ever since oreimo and how its author basically got chicken footed with the two siblings in question, there have been a massive rise in series where the siblings are NOT blood related. hell i wouldnt be surprised that cause of what happen with that series is the reason why some authors for some series like SAO , Tokyo Ravens and Trinity Seven have their two characters as cousins. however their are some otakus that claim the decrease of interest started when the blatant anti otaku japan govt passed that stupid youth ordinance bill which pretty much ended some series potentially killed the genre. one of their victims was the aki sora manga when the author posted on her twitter that the series (both the manga and its ero ova) wont be in production due to this law. regardless, due to the influence of the west and other factors, the genre is pretty much getting stamped out of the existence where the only way it will occur is in ero fanart doujins. though considering that gays and lesbians were able to get accepted into society when it was forbidden as well and in some countries, punishable by death, i could clearly see in a 100 years or even 50 years from now where people's stand on this subject ,though at least towards 1st and second cousins will change and even allow cousins to be a couple. siblings is another animal entirely and might be more tricky. |
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KH91
Posts: 6176 |
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I'm all for incest. No one should be held back from prospering. Ain't none of your business what two family members decide to do cause it has no effect on you so don't force your cultures values onto other people. Both in anime, manga, etc. and real life.
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relentlessflame
Posts: 188 |
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There are actually a very large number of stories that revolve around a guy pursuing a girl he didn't know before the story began. In fact, one of the biggest genres of "otaku" fiction today is "isekai" (transported to another world). There are also other stereotypes for speeding up these sorts of developments such as "mysterious transfer student", "visitor from space", and so on. You're right that romantic fiction in anime and related media doesn't generally deal with rejection, because they tend to be idealistic/escapist fantasies. (A lot of the stories you're alluding to are harem fantasies to some degree.) But they can make this work with pretty much any premise or type of character simply by providing reasons (through the plot) for the character to show interest in the protagonist. Using an established archetypal relationship simply saves time. It doesn't change the point that these stories tend to lead to a foregone conclusion, but this will happen regardless. You don't need a "safe premise" to get there; in fact, considering the popular light novels these days, the more rocky the path the better, even if the destination is foregone.
Well, I think you are overestimating the importance and psychosis of "otaku". People who are reading and enjoy this media (anime, manga, web novels, light novels, etc.) go far beyond the stereotypical premise of "adult men terrified of women". By trying to explain things only in the context of this stereotypical group of "losers", it seems to me that it's forcing you to try to find explanations for things that fit into that narrow box of their presumed issues. Fandom is much broader than that; it always has been, but certainly now. I also don't really agree that anime is as unique as you imply about "stand-ins" for the reader/viewer, nor that there's really this sort of compulsive requirement for the reader to so-deeply identify with the "stand-in". Just because some people may engage in the story that way doesn't mean that everyone will do so. For example, I know a lot of people who enjoy shounen romantic comedies who are only there for heroines and don't really care about the protagonist at all -- he's basically just a plot device. So... no, I don't really see any evidence to support your theory that this theme is used in particular because it removes the stress/risk of rejection, particularly considering the notable works with this theme. Rejection is just not a theme dealt with very often in media that tends towards escapist fantasy, because they tend to ultimately want to be uplifting to the reader/viewer. Stories that focus on this particular type of relationship aren't really unique in that aspect. Last edited by relentlessflame on Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23807 |
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If it were that simple, you'd have to ask why the incest trope is more prevalent in otaku entertainment than in other forms. For example, incest as a theme is pretty much consistent in both Western and Japanese porn. In that context, the fetishness/taboo nature is obvious. But why is the incest trope so common in non-porn anime/manga compared to other entertainment forms aimed at nerds around the world? You could argue that otaku are simply more interested in that fetish/taboo than other demographics, but I don't really buy it. @ relentless flame - we clearly disagree about some core perceptions about what is standard in anime and manga. To the point that there is little to be gained by further discussion since that will simply lead to a circular restating of previous points. I also don't want to try and indicate that all otaku are huge losers terrified of real women and so sensitive that they will only watch romantic situations that aren't stressful to them. That would be a gross oversimplification. However, I struggle to try and figure out why the incest trope is more common in otaku entertainment than other forms of escapist entertainment and as as I indicated to penguintruth, simply shrugging my shoulders and thinking that otaku have a greater interest in incest relative to other types of fandom around the world isn't very satisfying. |
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relentlessflame
Posts: 188 |
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Well, that is actually what the article in question is trying to address; part of it is cultural. It's a taboo that has less baggage in Japan than it does in the West, despite still being generally considered a taboo today. But you might as well ask why sexual themes are so common in "non-porn" anime/manga in the first place, much moreso than in media produced elsewhere in the world. Again, I don't really think this particular trope is an exception in that regard. Western culture tends to draw a stronger distinction between "porn" and "non-porn" (so some themes popular in porn nearly never come up in non-porn) but it seems to me that here it's more of a linear scale where the same underlying themes can be present throughout. Again, more of a cultural difference that's less related to "otaku" themselves. (It may be interesting to do a study of the themes popular in broader Japanese literature outside of the anime/manga sphere to see if this "linear scale" of themes also extends beyond the "otaku" walls.) |
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Did not know that. But does explain a few things from the visual novels I've played...
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