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Furudanuki



Joined: 29 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:31 pm Reply with quote
Alexander Morou wrote:
The people who mentioned that they didn't like Mike Toole's segment, had no valid grounds to call for the silencing of Mike Toole....

Excuse me, but could you please point out a single post in this thread that has called for Mike Toole to be silenced?
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Alexander Morou



Joined: 28 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:17 pm Reply with quote
Furudanuki wrote:
Alexander Morou wrote:
The people who mentioned that they didn't like Mike Toole's segment, had no valid grounds to call for the silencing of Mike Toole....

Excuse me, but could you please point out a single post in this thread that has called for Mike Toole to be silenced?


It's more of an implication derived from the obvious disdain observed in multiple posts and requests to, at the very least, segment the current form of ANNtv news from the segment mentioned.

This derivative format would give people a choice of whether they wanted to watch his segment or not. Which shows they disagree with his segment enough to want it removed from ANNtv in its present form. Thus that they disliked it to a degree that they wanted them to change their entire editing structure to include a completely different 'video cast'. ANN, to my knowledge, has only ONE known video-cast. It's my opinion that it is their choice on how to produce/direct it.

People say that the news and his segment are different; while that's obvious by the very nature of how both are produced in an entirely different format, ANN, as an acronym, contains the word 'news', which is why ANNtv contains news, the 'tv' part can contain whatever else they will it to.
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Tempest
ANN Publisher & CEO


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:56 pm Reply with quote
Zalis116 wrote:
@tempest: Thanks for the clarification. I was under the (mistaken) impression that there wasn't a significant number of oldschool fans in Japan anymore, since we're always hearing about the transience of series' popularity with the Japanese fanbase (i.e. they don't care about shows like Cowboy Bebop, Love Hina, Fruits Basket, etc. that still retain popularity over here), and because I figured the social stigma would've driven older fans out of the fandom. But my impression has been that moe is commercially successful to some degree in Japan and is liked by a sufficient number of fans. Otherwise, why would studios keep churning out series that nobody likes and nobody buys?


There are definitely fewer old-school fans in Japan today. But you have to remember that even in Japan today, less than half the new anime coming out is Moe.

SO my point is that their are many current fans that are neither moe fans, nor old-school fans. People who watch and enjoy shows like Blood+, Detective Conan, Kekkaishi, Tusbasa, Bleach, Naruto, Death Note, etc...

All you need to do is to look at the highest rated tv anime.

You also need to update you definition of "old-school" a bit. Fruits Basket, Cowboy Bebop and Love Hina hold certain importance in the North American scene because they came out during, and helped push the Anime / Manga boom in North America. In Japan, these are just random late-90s / early 2000s series. Cowboy Bebop in particular wasn't nearly as big a deal in Japan as it was in North America.

It's kind of impossible to pin-down a definition of Old-School Japanese anime fans, since anime has been around since the 1960s. If someone remains a fan of shows that aremore than 10-years-old, you could start calling them "old-school," but the shows might be 10+ or 40+ years old.

Most old-school fans I know in Japan tend to be fans of Sci-fi type anime things like Gundam, Macross, Patlabor, Harlock, etc...

One very notable compny bringing old-school sci-fi and moe together is of course Gainax. They've been pioneers of both fan-service and sci-fi since the 80s, and they continue to merge the two, and today's fan-service is called "moe."

-t
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:01 pm Reply with quote
Furudanuki wrote:
penguintruth wrote:
The ANN staff shouldn't have to justify Toole's segment with "he was only kidding" or "it's not meant to be taken seriously". If people don't have a sense of humor about their taste in cartoons, especially moe titles, they perhaps they shouldn't go to ANN.

Bold emphasis is mine.

Perhaps you would like to expand on exactly why you feel people who enjoy "moe titles" should require a thicker skin than fans of other varieties of anime on order to have a voice and be welcome here? I'm quite aware that moe is currently being presented as the whipping boy for everything from the imminent collapse of the anime industry to the heartbreak of psoriasis, and quite possibly playing a major role in global warming and the end of life as we know it. However, I was not aware that the climate here on ANN had reached the point where those fans are essentially second class citizens who best not get too uppity if they know what's best for them. If that is the case then I will not require an invitation to leave, thank you kindly.

And for the record, as my posting history clearly shows I do not make a habit of taking ANN's reviewers to task for their opinions. There have been scathing reviews of shows I have liked, and favorable reviews of shows I considered grossly inferior. But this is the first time I have honestly felt that someone has stepped completely over the line in what was presented as a "review". As I indicated in my previous post I have a problem with calling what Mr. Toole does a "review", not with the fact that ANN provided him with a platform. Because, in my opinion, being unabashedly prejudiced from the outset - "the specter that haunts Japan and the US" - then cherry-picking material and presenting it in a manner designed to reinforce said prejudice is far more akin to a hatchet-job than a review. And waving it off as "sarcastic humor" doesn't change that.


That's a nice persecution complex you have going for you, really. But once you get over it, you might look into the fact that a large volume of anime titles released over the past few years have been moe programs, and many of them are basically production filler, adapated from h-games and visual novels and such, with little creative differences. In that way, a person who's into the "moe" programs should have a bit more of a sense of humor about their shows for the simple fact that it's clear that a lot of the programs in their genre were made for the bombardment of the market, the companies hoping to hit their target. The same goes easily for fans of mecha (such as myself), except the time for that would have been the eighties and nineties, when mecha titles were flooding the market.

Second, if Toole's segment had bashed a show that you disliked, I suspect you wouldn't be so up in arms. Stop playing the victim just because Toole decided to point out some pretty obvious characteristics of a niche title and make some jokes at its expense.
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Tempest
ANN Publisher & CEO


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:15 pm Reply with quote
vtnwesley wrote:
News - noun - new information about specific and timely events.


Hi vtnwesley,

ANNtv isn't a news show. Although anime news is clearly a very, very major part of Anime News Network, it's not the only thing we do. Our columns, editorials, reviews, encyclopedia and feature articles are not news, and, with the exception of the encyclopedia, they all contain editorial.

In ANN's news, we have a strict "no editorial" policy. Never will you see us state whether something is good, bad,etc. When we write about someone's death, or the complete failure of an anime company, we don't include any opinion at all. We don't say things like "Sadly, today marks the passing of..." We just say "... died today at age ..."

During the 5 years that I did the news, I didn't even include subjective adjectives in the news. I didn't call anything a "hit-show", even if it had a 30% rating. Egan has slightly different writing style than I do, and I've allowed him to include those adjectives in the news, since all they are really, is a reflection on reality. No one would argue that a 30-rating is a hit.

Just like ANN, ANNtv is a mixture of news, and editorial content. Much like ANN, we started ANNtv with only the news segment, but as time goes on, the show will be beefed up with non-news. Basically, ANNtv will be a 30-minute show with 7-10 minutes of news, an 20 or so minutes of non-news (interviews, columns, etc...).

As with ANN, the news segment of ANNtv will not have any editorial. The rest of it obviously will.

As for the suggestion that we break ANNtv up,and allow people to view only the segments they want to view, it's an interesting idea that we'll consider. For now I don't think it would be a good idea for us to do that because we're going to be introducing a lot of new segments, and the only way to expose people to the new segments is to include the segments in what the people are already watching. But in the future, that might be a good idea especially when we start producing more than 30 minutes a week worth of content,every week. We'd probably introduce new shows as part of ANNtv, and then spin-them off.

For the record though, I absolutely love Mike Toole's segment, but I was a bit nervous about him doing the first episode on a moe title (that he didn't like), since many people are under the impression that ANN hates moe.

-t
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Tempest
ANN Publisher & CEO


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:43 pm Reply with quote
zalas wrote:

Well, I guess that boils down to how one defines "anime fan". There's both a mainstream audience in Japan, who would watch the more popular things like Sazae-san, Doraemon, Prince of Tennis, Ghibli, etc., and the cult "otaku" audience, who watches the late night anime shows, which comprise a large portion (in number of titles) of the anime released over here. Moe, using the current definition in this discussion thread, is a big part of that "otaku" audience, I believe, but probably doesn't stand out as much to the general anime audience.


Oh, this is undoubtedly true. Very, very true. Clearly all the really big fans of moe fall into the otaku category.But, even among hardcore anime fans (otaku), I'd be willing to bet that the hardcore moe fans make up the minority.

This isn't to say that the remainder, the ones that aren't hardcore fans of moe, don't like moe. They just don't gravitate to it as a "genre."

But of all the sub-categories of anime-fandom right now, moe is probably the second hottest. The hottest of course being shonen, which has significant mainstream appeal. Moe fans tend to be very dedicated, which is why there's so much moe (anime, games, merch) being produced right now.

-t
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championferret



Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 541

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:14 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
The people who mentioned that they didn't like Mike Toole's segment, had no valid grounds to call for the silencing of Mike Toole....

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I didn't necessarily want him 'silenced'. In fact, I'm interested to see his next segment when it comes on again to see how that is. I want to give the guy a chance, so I'll watch a few more of his segments and then make my decision how I feel about the guy and his views. All I'm saying was that I didn't have a very savoury first impression of him, but I want to wait and see what else he can do.
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Demontaco



Joined: 26 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:31 pm Reply with quote
tempest wrote:

For the record though, I absolutely love Mike Toole's segment, but I was a bit nervous about him doing the first episode on a moe title (that he didn't like), since many people are under the impression that ANN hates moe.

-t


If it helps, I was not under this impression, and i guess i'm turning out to be a moe fan, though i'm a bit new to the anime scene. I find it to be very artistic in the way that they get you to care about the characters, which is in my opinion the hardest reaction to get from an audience. But yeah, i don't think ANN hates it... the review of the first disc of Kanon was incredibly fair, i thought except for the complaints about things that don't make sense until the end. spoiler[ sawatari using her name instead of I, Ayu's backpack, etc] But those gaps are understandable assumptions for anyone who hasn't finished the title, so i'm not offended or up at arms, demanding the author retract his comments.

As for Toole, he's alright in my book. For hating the genre, i think he gave Kanon justice (and perhaps even some enticement for anyone who hasn't seen it), and simultaneously warned those who wouldnt enjoy the show away from it. I'm sure that on another segment, he'll say he hates something else, and those defending/attacking him will take the opposite side.
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MokonaModoki



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:55 am Reply with quote
Demontaco wrote:
As for Toole, he's alright in my book. For hating the genre, i think he gave Kanon justice (and perhaps even some enticement for anyone who hasn't seen it)...


100% in agreement with you (and Tempest) on Toole, and you are right on target with your assessment of his review. I'm Kanon neutral-to-negative based on my viewing of the streaming preview of the first episode, but his review of it actually piqued my interest enough that I'm considering putting the first volume in my Netflix queue to give it another chance. And I'd never make that decision without his witty and sarcastic assessment of it.

And for me, that's how reviews are supposed to work. Reviews aren't supposed to stroke the egos of people who are already fans of a show by affirming that they were 'right', they are supposed to inform the people who haven't already been exposed to it about one person's opinion of a show and what that person saw in it. You take what that person says, run it through the subjective/objective filter, get to the heart of the matter, and make a decision: "would this actually appeal to me, or not?"

That's the problem with most of the discussion related to reviews here - the assumption that a different opinion is necessarily wrong, and that people who haven't seen a show yet are complete dupes for the reviewers opinions. If the reviewer accurately conveys the elements of a show whether he or she likes them or not then they are providing their audience with the necessary information from their perspective and their reasons for that perspective to make their own decision about whether there's something there that might interest them. With some luck and consistency across a body of review work, you eventually get to the point that you can predict whether you will end up sharing that reviewer's opinions or not.

And the notion that it is somehow impossible to review the first volume of series without already being aware of the rest of the show, or being informed by some in-depth background is not only wrong, but it would completely betrays an audience that needs to know one simple thing - 'what's up with volume one?' Expecting the reviewer to necessarily have knowledge beyond what you get from the first DVD is essentially declaring a series inaccessible to someone whose first (and possibly only) experience of it is going to be watching that same first single volume.
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Viga_of_stars



Joined: 17 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:02 am Reply with quote
You know I never liked ANNtv that much or really at all....until Mike Toole was added. Now I will watch this as long as he's on. I found the segment entertaining, hilarious, silly and still informative, well implemented and he reviewed well.

You guys finally caught me as a watcher.
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autothrall



Joined: 29 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:33 am Reply with quote
Just wanted to comment that the Mike Toole segment was fantastic and I'm looking forward to more televised Anime Jump! If only a rekindling of the website could occur simultaneously...

Regardless, with this new segment and great podcasts like AWO, anime reviews are in great hands. Toole's review of Kanon was dead on the money, and if anything he gives that abomination of a series too much credit (and this is from someone who actually enjoys a few 'moe' and slice-of-life series). I sat through the entire series (and its predecessor) to see what all the hype was about, and honestly, watching my lawn grow for 12 hours would have been more entertaining.

Constructive criticism: though the jokes were funny, some slightly tighter editing on the video switch-offs would really strengthen the comic punch!

Keep up the great work!
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Furudanuki



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:42 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
That's a nice persecution complex you have going for you, really. But once you get over it, you might look into the fact that a large volume of anime titles released over the past few years have been moe programs, and many of them are basically production filler, adapated from h-games and visual novels and such, with little creative differences. In that way, a person who's into the "moe" programs should have a bit more of a sense of humor about their shows for the simple fact that it's clear that a lot of the programs in their genre were made for the bombardment of the market, the companies hoping to hit their target. The same goes easily for fans of mecha (such as myself), except the time for that would have been the eighties and nineties, when mecha titles were flooding the market.

That's a nice example of ad hominum abusive you have going for you, really. Did I use sarcasm and hyperbole when I asked you to clarify your original pronouncement? Why yes, I did. Did I state or imply that there was something wrong with you personally? No, I did not. You, however, felt it necessary to respond with a rather tired logical fallacy in an attempt to insult me on a personal level. So perhaps I am not the one here who is in need of a thicker skin or a more robust sense of humor? Sorry, but I'm not buying off on your contention that Person A is required to exercise a higher level of tolerence than Person B based on any of the reasons you have provided. You are certainly entitled to your views, but spare me the conceit of contending that I am somehow obliged to share them.

Quote:
Second, if Toole's segment had bashed a show that you disliked, I suspect you wouldn't be so up in arms. Stop playing the victim just because Toole decided to point out some pretty obvious characteristics of a niche title and make some jokes at its expense.


Ad Hominum - The Second Chapter. Nevertheless, I will attempt to address your concerns.

Yes, I confess it! I am more likely to take an active interest in things that I like than in things I dislike. Shocked A horrible failing on my part, I am sure. Rolling Eyes If Mr. Toole's segment had been about a show I genuinely disliked I probably would not have had much interest in first place. After all, the ANN headline indicated that I would be watching a show "in which he reviews Kanon and Alakazam the Great." Because of that I was expecting a serious review, and I have little interest in watching a serious review about a show that I already dislike. I do not decide that I dislike a show until I have seen a representative sample. Therefore, a positive review from a guy I don't know is not going to make me watch it again, and a negative review from a guy I don't know can hardly influence me to not watch a show I'm already not watching. But since the segment featured a series that I do like, it piqued my interest. Bad, bad tanuki! No taiyaki tonight! Crying or Very sad

But that is all irrelevant, really. Because despite your attempt at repackaging my position, my original objection simply involved Mr. Toole's piece being advertised as a review rather than a commentary or a pure opinion piece. And yes, even though a review will always boil down to the author's opinion, there is a difference. Do you think someone might possibly have cause to object if The New York Review of Books employed Ann Coulter to review a book written by Bill Clinton, or Al Franken to review a book written by Shaun Hannity? Either one could certainly put together a caustic and sarcastic commentary on the book in question, and they might quite possibly be a laugh riot as well, but I sincerely doubt that many people who do not share a similarly high level of bias would consider either one to be a serious critical review of the book. How about Tom Cruise reviewing a movie about Scientology that was produced and sponsored by the Church? Would that be more likely viewed as a puff-piece or as a serious review?

It doesn't matter to me if Mr. Toole chooses to set himself up as ANNtv's version of MST3K. He can lampoon, eviscerate, or tenderly caress any series he wishes. He can juggle flaming DVDs while doing the "Hare Hare Yukai" dance on piles of scantily-clad catgirl figurines and singing the GaoGaiGar opening theme in Pig Latin. It doesn't really matter what my opinion of his opinion is. Unless he makes an assertion that I can demonstrate is factually inaccurate, or does something that violates a law, regulation, or ANNtv policy, I have no legitimate cause to complain about how he expresses his opinions. But if he is put forward as a reviewer, then I have every right to expect the same standards from him that I would expect from any other ANN reviewer. A minor thing, perhaps, but I thought it was important enough to point out. And since this now makes three times that I have pointed out the same thing, I see no reason or value in continuing to do so.
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Hokum



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:18 pm Reply with quote
I thought it was great. I like the ANNTV "news" and the Anime Jump "reviews" are a great addon.

Next, Anime xtra "interviews"?

Keep up the good work and i'll definately tune in next week!
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:41 pm Reply with quote
Furudanuki wrote:
penguintruth wrote:
That's a nice persecution complex you have going for you, really. But once you get over it, you might look into the fact that a large volume of anime titles released over the past few years have been moe programs, and many of them are basically production filler, adapated from h-games and visual novels and such, with little creative differences. In that way, a person who's into the "moe" programs should have a bit more of a sense of humor about their shows for the simple fact that it's clear that a lot of the programs in their genre were made for the bombardment of the market, the companies hoping to hit their target. The same goes easily for fans of mecha (such as myself), except the time for that would have been the eighties and nineties, when mecha titles were flooding the market.

That's a nice example of ad hominum abusive you have going for you, really. Did I use sarcasm and hyperbole when I asked you to clarify your original pronouncement? Why yes, I did. Did I state or imply that there was something wrong with you personally? No, I did not. You, however, felt it necessary to respond with a rather tired logical fallacy in an attempt to insult me on a personal level. So perhaps I am not the one here who is in need of a thicker skin or a more robust sense of humor? Sorry, but I'm not buying off on your contention that Person A is required to exercise a higher level of tolerence than Person B based on any of the reasons you have provided. You are certainly entitled to your views, but spare me the conceit of contending that I am somehow obliged to share them.

Quote:
Second, if Toole's segment had bashed a show that you disliked, I suspect you wouldn't be so up in arms. Stop playing the victim just because Toole decided to point out some pretty obvious characteristics of a niche title and make some jokes at its expense.


Ad Hominum - The Second Chapter. Nevertheless, I will attempt to address your concerns.

Yes, I confess it! I am more likely to take an active interest in things that I like than in things I dislike. Shocked A horrible failing on my part, I am sure. Rolling Eyes If Mr. Toole's segment had been about a show I genuinely disliked I probably would not have had much interest in first place. After all, the ANN headline indicated that I would be watching a show "in which he reviews Kanon and Alakazam the Great." Because of that I was expecting a serious review, and I have little interest in watching a serious review about a show that I already dislike. I do not decide that I dislike a show until I have seen a representative sample. Therefore, a positive review from a guy I don't know is not going to make me watch it again, and a negative review from a guy I don't know can hardly influence me to not watch a show I'm already not watching. But since the segment featured a series that I do like, it piqued my interest. Bad, bad tanuki! No taiyaki tonight! Crying or Very sad

But that is all irrelevant, really. Because despite your attempt at repackaging my position, my original objection simply involved Mr. Toole's piece being advertised as a review rather than a commentary or a pure opinion piece. And yes, even though a review will always boil down to the author's opinion, there is a difference. Do you think someone might possibly have cause to object if The New York Review of Books employed Ann Coulter to review a book written by Bill Clinton, or Al Franken to review a book written by Shaun Hannity? Either one could certainly put together a caustic and sarcastic commentary on the book in question, and they might quite possibly be a laugh riot as well, but I sincerely doubt that many people who do not share a similarly high level of bias would consider either one to be a serious critical review of the book. How about Tom Cruise reviewing a movie about Scientology that was produced and sponsored by the Church? Would that be more likely viewed as a puff-piece or as a serious review?

It doesn't matter to me if Mr. Toole chooses to set himself up as ANNtv's version of MST3K. He can lampoon, eviscerate, or tenderly caress any series he wishes. He can juggle flaming DVDs while doing the "Hare Hare Yukai" dance on piles of scantily-clad catgirl figurines and singing the GaoGaiGar opening theme in Pig Latin. It doesn't really matter what my opinion of his opinion is. Unless he makes an assertion that I can demonstrate is factually inaccurate, or does something that violates a law, regulation, or ANNtv policy, I have no legitimate cause to complain about how he expresses his opinions. But if he is put forward as a reviewer, then I have every right to expect the same standards from him that I would expect from any other ANN reviewer. A minor thing, perhaps, but I thought it was important enough to point out. And since this now makes three times that I have pointed out the same thing, I see no reason or value in continuing to do so.


You're making this more complicated than it is. Stop showing off your debating skills, it's embarrassing.

I didn't insult you. I didn't attack you. You're just feeling unduely persecuted for your taste in anime by a reviewer who's perhaps a little more abrasive, but more open, than the other anime reviewers here.

If the reviews mean so little to you, as you claim, then why do you bother with them? Clearly your buttons were pushed. You're certainly entitled to voice your opinions of them, but don't rail against the reviews one moment, pretend you don't care the next, and right after that talk about the "standards" you expect from reviews that don't affect you one way or the other, anyway.
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endlesswhite



Joined: 20 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:48 pm Reply with quote
Wow, the internet really is serious business. I didn't know people actually like Kanon, but I guess you learn something every day. I liked the segment a lot and I'm looking forward to more. I assume there is no chance of an h264 feed?
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