Forum - View topic
RE: Manga versus Newtype


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Anime News Network Forum Index -> General -> Anime
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Aaron White
Old Regular


Joined: 23 Aug 2002
Posts: 1365
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2002 11:30 am Reply with quote
I respectfully disagree with Zac, the Answerman. As a devoted Eva fan who is ready, willing and able to find fault with it, I'd welcome a substantial critical analysis of the series, since I haven't read any critiques of Eva that really dug down deep. (They may be out there, but I haven't read them.) I don't agree that everything there is to say about Eva has been said, just that every general position on the Sux/Rules continuum has been taken.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime
Craeyst Raygal



Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 1383
Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2002 4:39 pm Reply with quote
There was one on this site a while back that went pretty deep. I gave it a read, and it did help me understand where the series came from (I'd already got the point of it all, and the meaning). What it didn't do was make me go "Wow, Evangelion is the ultimate in anime." as so many Eva-snobs (not accusing anyone here of being one, but it's a term I use to describe avid Eva fans who spend their time decreeing that Eva is the greatest anime out there and the last word in mecha. Which totally discredits the genre as a whole, plus greats like Macross, Gundam, and Patlabor) want me to believe.

Eva does need to be laid to rest. It, quite frankly, is getting very old in my book. It's overstayed its welcome in much the same way Dragonball Z and Tenchi Muyo have. (yes, I'll admit the series, barring the timeless OAV's, is growing gray) We've dissected, rehashed, and re-evaluated Eva to the point where we've said everything there possibly is to say.

Wait.....

Asuka looks like a carrot.

There, NOW we've said everything. Where's the wake?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Ataru



Joined: 04 Jan 2002
Posts: 2252
Location: Missouri (Strikeman)

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2002 7:23 pm Reply with quote
She does not. Razz Carrots don't have breast. Razz

With the Tenchi series, that a different can of fish. It just now became popular (Thanks in part of CN airing it.) just as it start to die like a flame in the wind, so they try to make it more popular by finishing it and bring it over to States so it goes on being popular. Any hoot, back to the topic at hand, just like DBZ, even GAINAX says, "Finish the series, but now they want us to finish a better note in a couple of movies. Fine, but that's it." Heck, Akira said that's it with DBZ, but Toei came back with GT.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger My Anime My Manga
Slim Shinji
ANN Reviewer


Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2002 8:09 pm Reply with quote
I've stayed away from this topic, but what the hey, here's my two cents:

One of the unique things about Eva is it is a series that has tremendous strengths as well as enormous weaknesses. It's been my experience that most series are either Just Plain Good or Just Plain Bad, but Eva is both at the same time.

As such, there are always gonna be people who think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and those who think it's crap. Though I personally lean more toward the Sliced Bread crowd, the Crap crowd have a lot of valid points.

Anyways, my point is that Eva is a love-or-hate-it kinda thing, and anyone who knows anything about the anime scene already knows that. Manga shouldn't have been surprised at all by the review, even if it's a little harsh. It's nothing readers haven't heard before.

But more importantly, they shoulda realized it's not gonna hurt their sales one bit. People who are buying the Eva movies already like them and are gonna buy them anyway....I feel sorry for the uninformed fool who picks up "Death and Rebirth" at Best Buy and says, "Hey, this looks kinda cool. Think I'll buy it."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 3184
Location: Montreal

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2002 11:33 pm Reply with quote
Ataru wrote:
She does not. Razz Carrots don't have breast. Razz

Oh, you'd be surprised at some of the carrots I've seen in my time Razz

Slim Shinji wrote:
Anyways, my point is that Eva is a love-or-hate-it kinda thing

Hehe, that made me remember a nice quote:
"You either love Eva, or you hate it, or both at once"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address My Anime My Manga
Aaron White
Old Regular


Joined: 23 Aug 2002
Posts: 1365
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 12:31 pm Reply with quote
Because I come from a fairly academic background, when I say we've barely scratched the surface with Eva, I'm not talking about everybody in the anime community holding forth on whether the love or hate it. I mean in depth analyses of the Kabbalistic and Jungian symbolism in the series and films. I mean detailed examinations of Eva's stylistic and narrative debt to the New Wave films of Godard and Resnais, and New Wave japanese films like Cruel Story of Youth. And that's just a starting point. And like I say, I haven't seen any substantial critical articles about Eva. There's plenty of Eva bashing out there, but the kind of article we're talking about hasn't been written that I've seen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime
Slim Shinji
ANN Reviewer


Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 1:32 pm Reply with quote
Aaron,

You might check out the book "Anime: From Akira to Princess Mononoke: Experiencing Contemporary Japanese Animation"
by Susan Jolliffe Napier. She doesn't go into cinematic influences or the religious symbolism, but she does talk at great length about the Fruedian psychology behind Evangelion

In fact, in my opinion she reads TOO much into it. The trouble with Eva is knowing how deep to go. For example, I'd say 90% percent of the religious elements are meaningless. Trying to discern the religious symbolism of Lillith on a cross with the Lance of Longinus stuck in her chest is akin to finding deep meaning in the Kali cult in the Temple of Doom.

Still, I'm afraid what you're looking for would fill an entire book. And I don't think even the Japanese fans are up to that task.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Aaron White
Old Regular


Joined: 23 Aug 2002
Posts: 1365
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 2:30 pm Reply with quote
Slim Shinji wrote:

Aaron,

You might check out the book "Anime: From Akira to Princess Mononoke: Experiencing Contemporary Japanese Animation"
by Susan Jolliffe Napier....

In fact, in my opinion she reads TOO much into it... Trying to discern the religious symbolism of Lillith on a cross with the Lance of Longinus stuck in her chest is akin to finding deep meaning in the Kali cult in the Temple of Doom.


I've got the book, and I like it quite a bit. It's a good example of the kind of thing I'm interested in, but it's just a start.

Anyhoo, at its best symbolism isn't a case of "Find the hidden meaning." As in, say, the Book of Revelation, people who try to "crack the code" miss the broader range of meanings. As Alan Moore wrote (in Dance of the Gull Catchers, the epilogue of From Hell) a symbol isn't a cover for one thing or another, but a variable for a range of possibilities. Let x=...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime
Aaron White
Old Regular


Joined: 23 Aug 2002
Posts: 1365
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 2:40 pm Reply with quote
Appy polly logies if I'm coming off all pompous or hectoring... I don't mean to, but I tend to!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime
Aaron White
Old Regular


Joined: 23 Aug 2002
Posts: 1365
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 6:14 pm Reply with quote
I did a Google search on "anti-eva." Most of the articles were in some furrin language. Most of the rest were about political opponents of Eva "Don't Cry For Me Argentina" Peron. And there were a couple of fanfictions about an "anti-Eva" bomb or something.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime
Cassandra



Joined: 13 May 2002
Posts: 1356
Location: Birdsboro, PA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 6:27 pm Reply with quote
Aaron White wrote:

I did a Google search on "anti-eva." Most of the articles were in some furrin language. Most of the rest were about political opponents of Eva "Don't Cry For Me Argentina" Peron. And there were a couple of fanfictions about an "anti-Eva" bomb or something.


maybe you should try "anti-Evangelion"...you'd probably get better results Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger My Anime My Manga
Aaron White
Old Regular


Joined: 23 Aug 2002
Posts: 1365
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 6:30 pm Reply with quote
Cassandra wrote:

maybe you should try "anti-Evangelion"...you'd probably get better results ;)


You'd think so. They were more on topic, but better? Nope.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime
Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 6791
Location: Snake Mountain Cocktail Lounge

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:15 pm Reply with quote
"In fact, in my opinion she reads TOO much into it... Trying to discern the religious symbolism of Lillith on a cross with the Lance of Longinus stuck in her chest is akin to finding deep meaning in the Kali cult in the Temple of Doom."

Okay, this is ridiculous.

Lilith is a biblical name, for a very prominent and controversial religious figure. She's crucified and has a spear in her chest. There is very OBVIOUS and OVERT religious subtext there.

You're telling me that something that steeped in religious metaphor is akin to the Kali cult in Temple of Doom? Come on, man. There's something to be said for reading too much in to something, but you could say the same thing about ignoring all symbols and metaphor.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
Slim Shinji
ANN Reviewer


Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:35 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:

Lilith is a biblical name, for a very prominent and controversial religious figure. She's crucified and has a spear in her chest. There is very OBVIOUS and OVERT religious subtext there.

You're telling me that something that steeped in religious metaphor is akin to the Kali cult in Temple of Doom? Come on, man. There's something to be said for reading too much in to something, but you could say the same thing about ignoring all symbols and metaphor.


errr....is this a sarcasm?

The image of Lilith being crucified not doubt holds a psychological and/or sociological meaning, but I don't think there's any genuine religious meaning behind it. It's a random jumble of Jewish and Christian imagery.....Lilith, the mask of God (or Satan depending on who you talk to), the cross and the Lance of Longinus....they just don't go together. I suppose it's possible Anno's trying to say something about Western religions, but I don't think he was interested in that. Christian and Jewish folkore merely provided a lot of cool imagery for him to use in a culture where such things have a more unfamliar, exotic feel to them......much like the cult in Temple of Doom. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gai Super Napalm



Joined: 09 Jan 2002
Posts: 148
Location: Hoboken, NJ

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2002 11:17 am Reply with quote
Slim Shinji wrote:

Zac wrote:

Lilith is a biblical name, for a very prominent and controversial religious figure. She's crucified and has a spear in her chest. There is very OBVIOUS and OVERT religious subtext there.

You're telling me that something that steeped in religious metaphor is akin to the Kali cult in Temple of Doom? Come on, man. There's something to be said for reading too much in to something, but you could say the same thing about ignoring all symbols and metaphor.


errr....is this a sarcasm?

The image of Lilith being crucified not doubt holds a psychological and/or sociological meaning, but I don't think there's any genuine religious meaning behind it. It's a random jumble of Jewish and Christian imagery.....Lilith, the mask of God (or Satan depending on who you talk to), the cross and the Lance of Longinus....they just don't go together. I suppose it's possible Anno's trying to say something about Western religions, but I don't think he was interested in that. Christian and Jewish folkore merely provided a lot of cool imagery for him to use in a culture where such things have a more unfamliar, exotic feel to them......much like the cult in Temple of Doom. :)


Being someone in the position of "answerman", I'm surprised you absolutely refuse to even entertain the idea that maybe this is yet another case of japanese people using western culture because its "cool". The symbols are taken from all over the damn place; its akin to eve going out on a date with jesus and deciding to wear josephs multicolored cloak.

To me it always seemed as though they just refered to the bible a lot to steep the story in some kind of biblical mysticism, but drawing actual parallells to actual events in the bible is never really done. There are a lot of references, but they are superficial.

Another point is that japanese people chronically misunderstand western culture and the english language; what makes you think that this is any different; and even if it is, how do you explain using it so deftly to create all of these symbols that you claim are there.

If you keep searching for whats not there, eventually you'll find what you're looking for.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> General -> Anime All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group