Forum - View topicClaymore - wait, I thought this was supposed to be good?
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Funny, I assumed that the point was exactly the opposite of that; that is, while it is imperative to humanity's continued survival that they kill the Yoma, if they lose that which makes them human in the process, it is all for naught. |
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Mister V
 Posts: 1000 |
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One thing I agree with is that the mass fights were awful. The best tactic of a group of professional monster hunters is to stand an get killed one by one. It's hideous.
At least the manga has some pretty good art and you can better imagine the battle pacing. Otherwise, you're overthinking it. Don't look for inconsistencies... though I can see how some elements may indeed get you angry. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Surely that only applies to ordinary folk. spoiler[The Claymores shoulder not only the burdens of fighting and protecting and dying, but also the gradual (or not so gradual) descent into madness. Giving up their humanity (a bit of it at the start, then virtually all of it when they Awaken) is part of the deal to give them the strength to fight Yoma. I get that the Organisation is not very nice, but that doesn't mean the basic implicit contract that Claymores agree to is tainted. Or put it this way. Claymores do not fight for themselves; even when they are motivated purely by revenge and working for an evil organisation, they are still protecting the innocent populace with every Yoma and Awakened Being killed.] Clare spoiler[chose her own humanity over Priscilla's life, and the lives of anyone Priscilla may kill end up killing. That you cannot defend. Clare could have killed Priscilla and then herself, removing two very dangerous and (soon to be) insane individuals from terrorising the planet, but she didn't. Far from being a hero, she wimped out. I can't forgive her for that. She abandoned her primary professional and personal mission - that of preventing others from suffering as she did - just so that she could find happiness at the expense of others. Sacrifice is one of the greatest human virtues. And yet after sacrificing and enduring so much for so long Clare exhibited such very human weaknesses when it mattered most. How fitting.] Wow, I didn't expect to get so animated. But yeah, the end really let the show down, big time. And I agree with Mister V in that the fights in the last few episodes were full of bad Shounen cliches (everyone who matters has an unique attack, time stops in battle to let characters talk, no battle tactics in effect, characters become immensely stronger for seemingly no reason, so on and so forth). |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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No, to the Claymores as well. spoiler[As evidenced by all the Claymores who experienced the near-awakening but reverted, the common wisdom that after being turned into a half-yoma monster one will inevitably become a blood-thirsty monster is a lie. The Claymores believe this because they are told it is true by the Organization, but the Organization speaks almost nothing but lies. ] spoiler[The idea that Clare would have the presence of mind to end her own life after killing Priscilla in the final battle is absurd, as at that point she would have been consumed by such primal desire for vengeance that she would have become just as much of a monster as Priscilla, and none of the other Claymores present were in the condition to take her out either, so it would have simply been substituting one evil for another, and losing the moral battle as well. I will concede that simply leaving Priscilla and Isley to their own devices is an abysmal solution to the problem, but the Claymores did not have the strength to eliminate them at that time, so an open-ended resolution is the best result we could have hoped for.] |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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You contradict yourself, kind of. spoiler[If Awakened Beings are intelligent (and yes, we have seen that, and the more powerful the more intelligent), then they are capable of rational thought. Clare would still have had the presence of mind to kill herself then and there if she wanted to. She may have been turning into a monster in physical terms, and perhaps even moral terms (although I certainly don't think that). But not in the form of what we normally think of a monster; a beast that cannot be reasoned with.]
Oh sure, I haven't forgotten that spoiler[Awakening is supposed to be like ecstasy to the Claymores. But Clare was still able to resist it, so why should killing Priscilla - an evil being which preys on humans (as far as Clare and the Anime-only audience can tell) - have magically pushed her over the edge? Like I said before, Clare might have figuratively become a monster by killing someone who couldn't/wouldn't fight back, but that doesn't mean she couldn't have made one final decision.] But okay, let's hypothesise. spoiler[If Clare had killed Priscilla, yet was unable to kill herself and went insane, then Clare still wins. She stopped an evil that let's not forget was a lot stronger than herself, so even if (worst case scenario) she took Priscilla's place then the world is still better off. Well, perhaps not in the short term, since Priscilla was less likely to attack people because she spent most of her time mooching around in her human form. But Clare as the Big Bad would have been a lot weaker than Priscilla, making it that much easier to take her out.] But even more importantly, spoiler[Clare wouldn't have abandoned her mission, even if she did go insane and start killing people as a "monster". She - I'm talking about her human mind and soul here - would have fought to the last to protect the innocent, to the best of her ability. I know that if I was actually in that situation, I would almost certainly hesitate to deal the fatal blow. But I would still believe that morally and practically, the best course of action would be to kill Priscilla without delay, and then kill myself. Even if I felt there was a small chance I could be saved from the madness if I tried to fight it, it would be too risky. That's what I would aspire to, not necessarily the choice I would make (because hey, I'm no trained killer).] Anyway, enough of that. I think I've said almost all I can say on this without going in circles, but if you have a reply I'd be more than happy to read it. |
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nobahn
 Subscriber Posts: 5120 |
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[Joke or not, don't insult other users]
But seriously.....
Hell, shows like Inuyasha are even worse! |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18192 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Why should spoiler[Clare be any different than other Claymores who have awakened? The series shows repeatedly that Awakening in both mind and body also seems to cost the Claymore any sense of conscience that they may have. Even Ophelia, who abhorred Awakened Beings more than any other Claymore shown in the series, couldn't bring herself to kill herself once she realized she had Awakened; she had to goad Clare into doing it for her. Given the rage that Clare was in during the climactic scene, there's no evidence to suggest that, had she finished Awakening, she could have willed herself to suicide.] |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Clare had not spoiler[Awakened yet, and there's no proof that she would have Awakened automatically as soon as she killed Priscilla. She was able to turn back after sparing Priscilla, it follows that she could have turned back after killing Priscilla. One act of mercy-killing would not have made a difference (or enough difference) timing-wise or with respect to Clare's mental state. An act which is totally justified in the grand scheme of things both morally and practically-speaking, but that's besides the point.]
I still think Clare should spoiler[have killed Priscilla and then kill herself, just to be on the safe side. She didn't know at the time whether she could "return to normal" or not. In hindsight, she could have, but of course hindsight is 20/20.] |
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face in the windowpane
Posts: 32 |
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Wow, I'm surprised by all of the "yeah, that's par for the course, so what" responses. I didn't realize that most of the things I'm complaining about are typical of action anime.
I'd seen some Dragon Ball Z and Inuyasha on cable, but I thought those were just poor quality mainstream shows. I had no idea that they were accurate representations of the genre. I've recently started watching Fullmetal Alchemist, and I'm quite enjoying it. It was my first action anime in a very long time, and it doesn't have these DBZ traits, so I suppose that's why I went into Claymore expecting something else.
I can see where you're coming from, but I don't buy this argument. Any claymore worth her salt (that is to say, all of them) has adequate fighting skills. Yoki seems to grant increased speed, strength and agility. It doesn't give the user the knowledge needed to put these enhancements to use. Even the weakest of the claymores know how to handle a blade better than most warriors. Priscilla wasn't a match for Teresa, but she was no joke. Priscilla kept her on her toes. Add in 3 other highly skilled warriors on Priscilla's side, and Teresa could have been in serious trouble. I remember something Irene said. This is an indirect quote from the English dub, so correct me if I'm wrong (I'd watched these episodes after dancing my butt off all night, so I'm not ruling that out): "The more yoki energy her opponent uses, the more powerful she becomes." That, right there, directly states that trying to defeat her through sheer might is the worst possible decision they could have made. |
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Darksorrow29
Posts: 412 Location: United States |
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@Face in the windowpane
Forgive me it's rather early in the morning... but I don't exactly get what inconsistency you're trying to portray. Is it the fact that spoiler[Teresa defeated the 3 other Claymores or the idea that the other Claymores transformed to fight against Teresa when she's supposed to be at her best when others use their Yoki? ] spoiler[ I'll address both points anyway. It's been awhile since I've seen the show, lets see what I can remember. If I recall they mention in the show that Teresa is the strongest #1 that the organization has ever had. So right off the bat we know she's pretty absurdly strong. I see no issues of inconsistency of her not being able to take on the rest of the claymores. Yes transforming and going after Teresa wasn't exactly smart... but if I remember correctly the claymore's plan was all screwed up with Priscillia went after Teresa by herself. Havoc ensued and people panicked and mad bad decisions. Plus Claymore's are at their strongest when using their Yoki. Even if someone is great against something, you should still use your full strength I believe. ] Anyway, minus the spoiler[jip of an ending, what else could have have done though? the manga is a monthly release and they ran out of content] I highly enjoyed the series. I personally didn't think it ran into any shonen formula mode that we see in Bleach and sometimes Naruto. What I mean by shonen forumla is that everything felt plot driven/had some mystery behind it etc, it wasn't just "lets go to point A to save X person and fight bad guy Y" If I recall the production value was high and the show was consistency well animated. It had good action as well, I got into the characters and into the story. I was curious throughout the show what was going on, how certain things worked, etc etc. In fact I enjoyed it so much I ended up reading the manga, which is painful cause it comes out so slowly  . (Yes Berserk readers, I know you have it worse  ) Feel free to check my ANN anime list though if you want to get a feel for what I've seen.
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Showsni
 Posts: 641 |
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How's that an inconsistency? Irene says if you use yoki power she'll beat you. They use yoki power, and she beats them. That's the opposite of an inconsistency! That's completely consistent with what we've been told! |
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face in the windowpane
Posts: 32 |
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Irene says they shouldn't use their yoki to fight Teresa. When she fights Teresa, the first thing she does is yoki up. That's inconsistent of her. Oh, and Darksorrow. I wasn't going to reply, but I suppose I should. Priscilla going solo wasn't going against any plan. The team didn't seem to have one. Irene and the others actually kicked back and enjoyed assessing their new member's abilities; they certainly weren't panicked about the one-on-one. They were content to watch and step in when they were needed - and they knew that they would be needed. Oh, and "even if someone is great against something, you should still use it"? Definitely not true. That assumption is the downfall of countless people, both real and fictional. Last edited by face in the windowpane on Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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John Casey
 Posts: 1853 Location: In My Angry Center |
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Twitch. Twitch twitch. T-t-twitch! Keep that Inuyasha shit AWAY from a thread in a show I'm interested in what....WAS interested in watching. ...Somewhat still am. In a remote, closeted sort of way. Fact is, Inuyasha is pretty much worse than anything there is out there. I'd watch Fighting Foodons over that crap. So, comparing Claymore to Inuyasha in terms of what is worse...well, it's disproportionate, yah? :X Polish a turd, and all you'll get is a really shiny turd. |
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face in the windowpane
Posts: 32 |
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Hey, John Casey.
What exactly is your problem with Inuyasha? I hate that show too, but a lot of the similarities between it and Claymore are, apparently, staples of the genre. I didn't know that because I haven't seen too much of it. It was an expensive lesson. 
If you don't have a problem with action anime in general, then I guess you shouldn't stress about it too much. |
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7983 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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Claymore was a damn good show if you ask me. It had good characters, nice action and it interesting story. Heck even the ending wasn't that bad and can act as a conclusion of sorts. Would be awesome if they continued it with a second season at some point, though. After that point the manga gets quite interesting.
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