Forum - View topicFullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood -[adult swim] (w/index).
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penguintruth
 Posts: 8461 Location: Penguinopolis |
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As much as I love the first series, I disliked that they dragged out Alphonse's existential crisis because of Barry's words further than it needed to be. It was only one more episode's worth than here, but it was still unnecessary. In fact, I thought the whole thing was pretty silly to begin with, since there are probably photos of Alphonse as a kid hanging up in the Rockbell house.
Here, the solution is simple, a simple dressing down by Winry and a heartfelt talk between brothers. I've never been a big Winry fan but I definitely appreciated her in that scene. As far as the voice acting, Maxey Whitehead has become a great Al, but I felt like she faltered a little bit here and there in this episode. It might just be my initial impression, though. I felt the same way about Caitlin Glass' Winry. She had improved since the first series, but now she sounds more like she did before, and it's irritating. Elicia Hughes' voice is super adorable. |
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amarielah
 Posts: 178 |
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I always understood it as Alphonse not questioning whether or not there was a person named Alphonse Elric who once existed, but rather questioning whether or not he was actually the same Alphonse. Photos up in the Rockbell house wouldn't be able to prove that his memories were genuine. |
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DangerMouse
Posts: 3983 |
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Also, one of the few things I didn't like in the first series was how weird it was that Winry barely confronted/helped Al in the first season's version of this, so I liked how Winry gets to handle it this time much more. Too true. Hughes and Winry's reaction to it was inevitable lol. |
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jjwitdaheydiddydiddy
 Posts: 45 |
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I agree. Though I didn't like this little conflict in FMA as a whole (it seemed a little phoned-in), I do think that Brotherhood handled it better. I also liked that they cut out Al running away and hanging out with those Ishvalan refugee kids. Super-boring. And I still hate Scar's new voice, but... nothin' I can do about that. |
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amarielah
Posts: 178 |
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Honestly, this was not the strongest arc in any iteration of FMA. But, characterization-wise, the writing is sloppiest in the manga/Brotherhood. The entire incident is completely OOC for Alphonse based on everything we've seen of his character in Brotherhood, and it's never brought up again, so it's also inconsistent based on later characterization. The whole thing always seemed like it was just an excuse to add in some conflict between Ed and Al, and try to make Al seem a little less perfect--since, in the manga and Brotherhood continuity, he lacks any real character flaws.
They solved the characterization problem in the first anime by drawing it out and giving it foreshadowing, but that created pacing and pathos problems in its stead. There was just no winning when it came to this material, IMO. Brotherhood may have solved it by adding in some foreshadowing, as well, but it still wouldn't have matched up well with everything else Alphonse does. |
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Maidenoftheredhand
 Posts: 2633 |
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No quite honestly the only sloppy writing is in the first anime with having Al for no reason whatsoever not remember things. If this is the background you are talking about to make Al act like he did then it makes no sense in the context of the story.
And I do believe that Al (who is usually shown to be a strong character) can have a moment of weakness and stupidity as a kid. Not to mention Al had just heard Ed say he was afraid to tell him something so Barry's words brought this back to him. This in my opinion is the equivalent of Ed's moment of weakness when they first fought Scar. Both Ed and Al became emotionally stronger from these incidents and the manga does build on them. Ed does not needlessly throw away his life when there is a chance to live and Al does not give up on getting his body back. That is all this moment was in the manga. It was not meant to be a long drawn out angst fest. It was solved by Ed and Winry literally beating some sense into Al and having a heart to heart talk. Clearly the characters have learned something from these moments, other then that I don't see why they have to be brought up again. |
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amarielah
Posts: 178 |
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First of all, Al "not remembering things" had nothing to do with characterization, so it's completely irrelevant as a comparison. How he reacted to those missing memories is relevant, and that was shown over time to be a consistent part of his characterization. So, not sloppy as far as characterization goes.
That said, could you please explain how him missing some of his minor memories from childhood made no sense in the context of the story? Given the consistent theme of sacrifice, I'd say it makes perfect sense within the context of the story. Second of all, Alphonse was not just a little boy who "deserved a moment of weakness." This is fiction, not reality, so Alphonse should not just act like any old kid out of the blue--he should act like Alphonse. Edward had moments of weakness before his run-in with Scar (and had been shown to be very willing to sacrifice himself for the sake of his brother), and moments of weakness after (the whole lab 5 incident). Alphonse never had a moment of weakness before, and never had one after. Not only had he not had moments of weakness before, he'd always been the sensible one. Not sometimes, not usually. Always. Why would such a sensible person suddenly believe Barry the Chopper, the psycho who was trying to kill him? Well, there is no reason. That's exactly the point. Simply put, it's inconsistent writing. Or, as Tv Tropes puts it, an Out Of Character Moment (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OutOfCharacterMoment). It also involved something called an Idiot Ball -- a character who had previously been shown to be rational and intelligent behaving in a way that is suddenly below his established intelligence, with no hint to contextualize that sudden change. You'd think a rational person like Alphonse would ask Edward what he meant instead of jumping to conclusions, but he didn't. Not even when he had the chance. So, this may not have bothered you, but it's legitimately sloppy writing. I'm perfectly aware of what it was supposed to do--I just don't think that it achieved those goals elegantly, and was instead shoehorned in. So, as far as characterization goes, it's sloppier than the equivalent two episodes in the first series. Perhaps less sloppy on the pathos front, though that's a criticism that's harder to substantiate. As is the criticism that "he lost some of his very minor memories for no reason". And before anybody accuses me of being biased, a similar Out of Character Moment was had by Edward in episode four of the first anime, where he didn't really react at all after inadvertently killing someone. And the writing in that episode was even sloppier. |
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Maidenoftheredhand
Posts: 2633 |
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I wasn't comparing it I was saying it is extremely sloppy writing and you know what it still is. What do you mean sacrifice? He sacrificed a few of his childhood memories & his entire body? That makes no sense and besides the point it was ignored later on.
Sorry but I don't see how he was not acting like Alphonse because for a brief moment he did something stupid. This does not go against anything else in the story. And yes Alphonse has made other mistakes in the story. He did not make a mistake like this again but that is because he has learned from it. But it's pretty clear you do not understand Alphonse in the manga if you think he can never make a mistake and can never have a moment of weakness. |
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amarielah
Posts: 178 |
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Fine, but it still wasn't really relevant to the points I brought up. Ignoring that, however: I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Why is forgetting a few of his childhood memories silly? I never meant that the sacrifice was necessarily the case, only that it could be in context. A little ambiguity is not necessarily a bad thing. Even if it wasn't the result of the sacrifice, I don't see why having lost a few insignificant childhood memories is silly. Alphonse wasn't being very rational, so those lost memories--whether by sacrifice or by having an imperfect human memory--became a big deal to him. And how was it ignored later on?
The point isn't that he did something stupid: it's that he did something stupid that made no sense based on how he had always behaved before and after that. It goes against his established characterization, and is not justified by later characterization. Yes, it was only for a chapter. That's why it's called an "out of character moment", rather than Character Derailment.
How's about this: if you really think I don't understand Alphonse in the manga, then why don't you show me evidence from the manga itself to prove me wrong. Alphonse doesn't really make many "mistakes". No, he isn't omniscient, but I can't think of a single incident in the manga where Alphonse' misfortunes are the direct result of his own flaws, rather than simply the result of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Anyway, even if Alphonse made other mistakes, your argument doesn't stand. As I said earlier, the problem isn't that Alphonse made a mistake; it's that he made a mistake that didn't make sense with regard to his character. Again I ask: Why would Alphonse, an incredibly reasonable person, believe Barry the Chopper? Why wouldn't he ask Edward to clarify what his question was? "Because he was making a mistake" is not a good answer. |
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Maidenoftheredhand
Posts: 2633 |
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Because they never mention it again do they? Why was he losing those memories? Was there a reason in regards to his lost body or was it just a normal person forgetting something? If something is brought up then I want to know the reason why it was happening. Otherwise it was a wasted scene and not having that scene does not change my opinion on Al's reaction to Barry.
Because by the time Al could ask Ed he was afraid of the answer. When Ed initially brought up he was afraid to tell Al something they were interrupted. Then the whole situation with Barry the Chopper happened. It upset Al so he didn't confront Ed and kept it bottled up inside until he could no longer keep it inside so he blew up. This is a normal way people react when they are upset. Everyone acts irrational and stupid from times to time and I don't think this moment ruins Al's characterization. That is where we disagree because you seem to think a character can only act one way all the time. Alphonse is not a stock character. None of the characters in the manga are like that. |
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amarielah
Posts: 178 |
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And here I thought you were actually referring to some inconsistency where he suddenly remembered those memories later. Why would they have to bring it up again if the issue had already been resolved? Why does every little thing have to be explained in detail? I think it would be sloppy writing to include such minute details and bog things down with completely superfluous exposition. I'm getting the feeling that you're just not a fan of having any ambiguity in fiction. That's fine as your own personal taste, but you're going to have to do some more explaining if you want to pass it off as sloppy writing. The fact of the matter is that it's either a matter of Alphonse having some of his memories taken, or being a regular person who forgets thing--there are no other valid explanations. And since both work in the context of the series, both are possibly correct. The writers are allowed to leave some things up to interpretation. Funnily enough, there's quite a bit of similar ambiguity in the manga/Brotherhood. I can give you examples, if you want.
I don't know where you get the idea that "consistent character" is the same as "stock character". I never said that it ruins Al's characterization: I said that it weakens his characterization for this particular chapter/episode, which weakens the writing for this particular chapter/episode. And again, Alphonse is not a normal person. He's in fact an extraordinary person; a person who displays extraordinary rationality and level-headedness for his age. He had been faced with equally bad situations in the past, and he never reacted this way. From the perspective of fictional characterization, the way he acted in this chapter did not make sense. It could have, but it didn't. You may reject this criticism because you simply disagree with the idea that a character's actions have to be logical and make sense based on previous or later behavior. That's fine. But you haven't actually invalidated my opinion based on that criteria, because it seems that you agree that it wasn't consistent with how he'd behaved in the past. So, based on you seemingly rejecting the actual criteria of the criticism, would you come to the defense of the same problem in episode four of the first anime? That Edward was just a kid, and that kids sometimes waiver in their moral convictions? Or ignore the obvious implications of their actions? |
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Dune
Posts: 223 |
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Are you guys talking about anime1!Al at this part? I think I'm getting my Alphonses confused.  If that's the case, then yes, there were a few reasons for Alphonse's dilemma in the grand scheme of the previous show. (Some 'anime1' spoilers below)
1. Emphasized Alphonse's character/flaws... you guys seem to be already debating this one so I won't go into detail... 2. Helped establish the concepts of false people and false memory. In the previous show, one reason why Alphonse was freaked out about the possibility of creating fake people or fake memories was because it was very real and possible. Al let his suspicions get the best of him partially because, deep down, he was aware that he and Ed were capable of doing such a thing (...and they did). In Lab 5, Al's suspicions about himself increased when he met the Homunculi, and when he overheard Tucker planning to implant Nina 2.0 with fake memories. The later confrontations with Tucker/the Homonculi--and Sloth in particular-- are basically Al's dilemma come to life. Sloth is essentially everything that Al thought he was during this memory crisis, a false being with false memories created by the Elrics. Which incidentally ties into the ongoing theme of 'what makes a person, a person' that was touched on by Lust/Sloth, etc. Before Alphonse met up with those Ishbalan refugees, he mentioned something along the lines of "If I'm not real, then that means Mom could be fake too..." And then the episode closes with confirmation of you-know-who as a Homunculus. Not a coincidence, because the memory loss-thing ties into the Homonculi stuff. 3. The themes present during these portions are implicitly repeated when spoiler[Alphonse loses his memory (for real this time) at the end of the show/during the movie.] Last edited by Dune on Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Maidenoftheredhand
Posts: 2633 |
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It's not superfluous because the story acted like it was important that he suddenly forgot those memories and then it was never brought up again. That's extremely poor writing in my opinion and has nothing to do with ambiguity and leaving things up for interpretation which I am perfectly fine with when done well. Not all loose ends can be blamed on ambiguity. It feels more like the writers (in that particular instance) forgot about that moment or were making things up as they went along.
I would say go ahead except this is the adult swim broadcast thread and it could lead to spoilers. It is also why I didn't give examples of Al's other mistakes. In other words I will take your word for it. And I don't want to get into an argument over every detail of the story either.
But then this is where we disagree because I feel a character does not have to act a certain way to be able to have an irrational/stupid moment.
The difference here is it was a huge point in the story that Ed does not want to kill anyone whereas I disagree with your characterization that Al is the type of character that can never have an irrational/stupid moment. That being said as much as I dislike the 4th episode of the 1st anime at least Ed does show regret for this moment later on in the story edit: As for the thematic use of memories in the story fine but I was not criticizing the story for its themes (which is a strong point of the 1st anime) I was criticizing the first anime for how it presents its plot points. |
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Dune
Posts: 223 |
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Whoops; sorry if I misread your intent.
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amarielah
Posts: 178 |
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Except, as Dune pointed out, it wasn't "never brought up again". Not these particular memories, no, but the actual theme is a recurring one. If Ed and Al have resolved their misunderstanding, why would they feel the need to dive so deeply into why Alphonse didn't remember some random, minor events from his childhood? They had more important things to worry about. If Al was missing some major event from his childhood, then yes, it would have been remiss not to address it again. But the things he was missing were small and inconsequential. A big deal to him at the time, but not a big deal in the big picture.
I'm just trying to suss out whether or not you're applying consistent standards for your criticisms, is all, or whether they're made on the basis of liking or disliking a particular creative choice.
Fair enough. Still don't see how characters acting consistently make them "stock", however. "Stock characters" refer to character archetypes with very little original personality.
But I would argue that it's a pretty huge part of Alphonse' character that he's rational. This doesn't preclude him doing stupid things, but it should shape the way he does stupid things. I agree that the example in the first anime is the worse of the two, but you can still apply the exact same rationalizations: "Edward was just in shock, and couldn't react to it." "Edward was too young, and couldn't accept that he'd actually been partially responsible for the murder." "Isn't Edward allowed to be in denial just like any other kid his age?" Etc. etc. The reference to it later struck me as a handwave, personally.
But when those plot points tie into recurring themes, it's incorrect to say that it's later ignored. It's just addressed in a different form. |
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