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NEWS: Black Butler Author Decries Illegal Videos, Downloads


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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3199
Location: NE Ohio

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:48 pm Reply with quote
Tanteikingdomkey wrote:
I am sure what is worse someone say crunchysubs is doing nothing wrong or being grouped with them by people here.


But the grouping is understandable, since most fansubs that most people see is direct head to head competition against legit content.

Quote:
if you want to say doing shows that are unlicensed and have a very high chance of remaining that way that is wrong but saying that crunchyroll is alutrustic.....


No, not that Crunchyroll is altruistic, that Crunchyroll is, since the start of 2009, legit.

Where did anybody say that Crunchyroll is altruistic? They're a business, out to make money. And, as the ANNcast this week made clear, were pretty much failing at it as a bootleg site (the economics only work out for anime leech streaming sites because they do not host the video streams themselves), so when they got the opportunity to try to go legit, they grabbed it with both hands.

Altruism, shmaltruism. They are legit because its the more promising way to grow their site. As long as they pay revenue back to the content creators, maybe I prefer that they are doing it for greed or ego ~ altruism can be an unsteady motivator.

Quote:
(keep it together tantei) I can assure you just about every show that crunchyroll does is done by a fan subbing group, and while I enjoy my membership to it very much their timing and typesetting on occasion is something I would expect on a Hong Kong bootleg


They don't do the subtitling themselves, of course. When pressed on it onsite, they say they keep asking.

Quote:
(the translations are great though, and they said they will start doing song translations and kara soon and they have gotten much better recently).


... they don't do the translations either, at least not the English language ones, though I read something somewhere that suggested they may be getting permission from one or more rights holders to allow region specific, language specific alternate translations, which would be the thin edge of the wedge toward getting the right to do alternate subtitles more widely on the site ...

Quote:
IT IS NOT right to take those videos off that site and make them downloadable.


Its also clearly wrong to fansub a current season show before its become clear whether or not it will be licensed. And most of the "not ripped" fansubs are shows that are either already licensed, likely to be licensed, or else done far too soon to be able to know if they are likely to be licensed.

Its not "fansub groups over here, DVD and stream rip groups over there". As far as your rules, most of the fansub groups seem to be at least partly in the same rule breaking box with the DVD and stream rip groups. Even for long established groups with ironclad "drop if licensed" rules, it turns out that if enough in the project disagree, they just hive off and release it under a different name.

Edit: and speaking of Altruism:
MisterH wrote:
scchan wrote:
subbers are doing subs because Big-Download-Count-Syndrome for E-Peen enlargement.

If I knew how to rip shows and subs from CR, I'd buy a subscription and anonymously distribute the rip.
Why?
Altruism. A hard concept to grasp for those only motivated by self interest.


I don't know if its such a hard concept to grasp.

The genuinely altruistic will sooner or later discover that there are people starving and people homeless and the time they are spending keep providing anime to those without could be spent feeding the hungry and putting a roof over the homeless, rather than taking food money and rent money away from manga-ka and food money from inbetween animators (an inbetween animator is obviously not paying rent in Tokyo at $1,000 or so a month).

So I think scchan nailed the kind of "Altruism" that gets people to sign up to Crunchyroll in order to rip their subs.


Last edited by agila61 on Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tanteikingdomkey



Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 1476

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:52 pm Reply with quote
BuckwheatNoodle wrote:
Tanteikingdomkey wrote:
I also own yen presses version of volumes 1 and 2. she does have every right to chastise people who use fan subs over official releases. could she have phrased it a lot better, definitely. the first FMA was about (in some part) there is no equivalent exchange however it works in the manga and 95% of the time in the anime so. anyway she is doing fine so we do not need to go into the whole I am broke thing ok, nor do we need to define what a fan is alright


Nothing wrong with how she phrased it.

Also, it was in her personal blog, not a newspaper.

Other than that, I agree with you.

just because it was on a blog and not a newspaper does not matter after all as the funimation blog taught us with
we have to edit dance in the vampire bund to make it suitable for US audiences. it does not mater where you say it anymore it is how you phrase it. because as I am they learned phrasing is everything (I still wish they where going to do an edited dvd though since I hate loli-con aspects of any show).
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3199
Location: NE Ohio

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:53 pm Reply with quote
Sunday Silence wrote:
Quote:
In the words of a certain steely fellow, this violates the Law of Equivalent Exchange!


Wrong when you take it to a worldwide level.


For crying out loud, she's writing to Japanese fans. Its her BLOG, in JAPANESE. Anyone who can read the blog can at the very least import the Japanese manga directly and just read it.
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Sunday Silence



Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 2047

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:57 pm Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
Sunday Silence wrote:
Quote:
In the words of a certain steely fellow, this violates the Law of Equivalent Exchange!


Wrong when you take it to a worldwide level.


For crying out loud, she's writing to Japanese fans. Its her BLOG, in JAPANESE. Anyone who can read the blog can at the very least import the Japanese manga directly and just read it.


And I seriously doubt people want to be anally raped after the S&H fees kick in.

I was thinking of getting the entire series of OverRev! and My Favorite Carerra, and you know what the S&H was? $400.00 for $150.00 worth of manga!

GWOtaku wrote:

Quote:
Before you try to download, try to check TV to prevent from missing because they are free when they were broadcast. And, if you feel it funny or you want to watch next episodes, please buy any products including DVD, rentals, official products or CD. One is enough. Please buy the official products of anime you like. It will save the future of the work and also save the future of anime and manga industry. Please. We will do as much as possible to produce good works to entertain you.


There's your encouragement.


Her argument is moot when I can just go online and stream them off the official websites a/or licensed sites. And most TV shows on right now just plain suck.


Last edited by Sunday Silence on Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:01 am; edited 2 times in total
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Almaz



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 134

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:57 pm Reply with quote
hissatsu01 wrote:

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Sweet. My feelings exactly.

I think we ought to have an Otaku fight show pitting the extreme fansubbers (those money grabbing, killers of manga and anime artists of the world) vs. the purists (one who are perfect in life and do no wrong.) The proceeds go to the starving artists that are living in the blue boxes on the streets of Tokyo. Before the flames begin, this is what many people here in the forum sound like. My comments are mere satire. So chill please.

I would place myself in the middle. This subject is only made worse from the economy. I read the article claiming libraries do no harm. I found articles just the opposite. Billions of articles are lent on the original purchases. Whatever. If people can't do the math, I am not going to tutor you. It is all number games and statistics. I can paint something one color, and you can paint it another. Doesn't solve the problem that less and less money is going to the artists ... be it from borrowing, "stealing," the publisher screwing the artists, people getting tired of their expensive hobby and moving on, watching at a friends house and not liking it, people degrading each other, and the list goes on.

I am a fan of my local basketball team. Never bought any merchandise from them and only went to one game. I still consider myself a fan and cheer them on when they go to the playoffs. Get off of your crystal thrones on the fan issue.
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Tanteikingdomkey



Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 1476

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:03 am Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
Sunday Silence wrote:
Quote:
In the words of a certain steely fellow, this violates the Law of Equivalent Exchange!


Wrong when you take it to a worldwide level.


For crying out loud, she's writing to Japanese fans. Its her BLOG, in JAPANESE. Anyone who can read the blog can at the very least import the Japanese manga directly and just read it.

then why did it mention the US releases of the anime and manga and funimation and yen press? I think it was also aimed at us
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ArsenicSteel



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 2370

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:04 am Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
ArsenicSteel wrote:
and the redirect.

I was pointing out that Soba-man's the 4th conclusion assumes fans are knowledgeable of business transactions that put manga on the shelf of their local ABC mart. Saying the process is relatively transparent is not making any excuse for bootlegs.


I was basically disputing both the claim and your response at the same time as being beside the point.

Whether or not fans or "fans" or audience members or whatever in the hell we are I don't want to fall back into that ultimately pointless argument over semantics ... {deep breath} ...

... understand that point four stuff does not matter for supporting fans that consume what they are entitled to and support the creators as best they can.

Not understanding the point four stuff only enters into it for people who use it as an excuse for consuming bootlegs. And like most rationalizations, "understanding" it just means that excuse is abandoned and another one is picked up.

Edit: If it was transparent, it would be easy to see how it works. Hard to see how it works is obscure.


Oh like transparent tape?
Shucks, I'll be damned. That is a definition of the word.

I know point 4 does not matter and is not directly related to the topic. That is why I commented on it. This has been one big perpetual monster of a thread that if you don't agree with others in you just get plowed under. Damn near 30 pages of people agreeing and saying one another is right....snooze.
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GokuMew2



Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 1630
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:09 am Reply with quote
Going from where I left off yesterday so there'll be replies from what was said a few pages back.


PetrifiedJello wrote:

Mediggo wrote:
They get millions of views because they offer it at a much better price...

You're at a site which offers everything for free. Where's the audience? Sorry, Mediggo, but free isn't the reason piracy sites flourish. FUNimation, Crunchyroll, and TheAnimeNetwork are all free, but the audience attendance doesn't even come close. Thus, we can definitely rule out free being the reason.


I think Mediggo forgot to add the words "easily accessible." The non-legal websites offer free contents and are easily accessible. I'm not sure about FUNi and AnimeNetwork, but with Crunchyroll and YouTube, while they are free, they are also locked to certain countries that have the license to stream the content. On the illegal websites, anyone can have access and it's still free.

Also, illegal sites are more timely. With Crunchyroll, you have to wait at least a week to see the "latest" episode unless you subscribe.


britannicamoore wrote:
My only real question: why would fans email her telling her they watched fansubs? Sounds like a troll to me and she only reacted to it.


As I mentioned in one of my previous replies, this has been an ongoing thing. Toboso sensei had been receiving these types of messages for a while and only NOW is she reacting because she felt the need to. By saying "she only reacted to it," you make it sound like she blew her top the moment she got one message. This has been going on and could have been going on for months, and Toboso sensei had gritted her teeth all this time.


chocoshins wrote:
And ahhh, don;t talk about me and like you know me 'oh greek there!11.' Yes, i live in Greece and i rarely have access in bookstores to get releases and stuff but still i support a lot of series i really like even if shipping kills me. But i would be damned, if i bought every little shit i ever watched/read, otherwise bai bai university.


This is where the fan who financially supports artists and never relies on bootlegs gets their priorities straight and gives up their hobby, which costs money, for a while in favor of the more-important education. Then after they graduate and get a paying job where they can afford their hobby again, they continue where they left off.

So basically, if you don't want to be called a leech, make sure your hobby is one you can afford.

Just playing devil's advocate; I'm glad you actually put some effort into making sure the artist gets paid even though you have limited resources. That's much better than some others here. Still, at the end of the day, if you don't pay for something, you're stealing. The fact doesn't change if you buy one or two things here and there but "preview" (read: "download") the rest.


chocoshins wrote:
Anyway, the point is. Industry is not gonna die, please. Companies are still making shitload of money, they just try to make more. That is business's law, make more profit, cut expenses. So, usage of starving and etc. is actually kind of amusing.


Alright, this one I gotta give you a dose of reality. The industry is not going to die? Um, have you been living under a rock? Have you not been reading all the reports on ANN about the layoffs in the industry, companies going out of business, sales going down, etc, etc? The fact is, the industry IS DYING. It's not dead yet, but if things continue the way they are going, it certainly will in the future. Perhaps not now, but eventually.

The only reason why companies have started official webstreams and the like is because things are bad and they need new forms of media to get more customers. Illegal streams were stealing their money so companies entered the same market to try to take some of that back.


Sunday Silence wrote:
Didn't know she was talking about Japanese fans, not Foreign fans. Huh. But still, encourage your fans to buy instead of berating them.


Perhaps you didn't see, but I mentioned a few pages back in a reply (actually I think it was my first reply in the thread) that Toboso sensei's post was directed at Japanese fans, not foreign fans.

Also, Toboso sensei DID encourage people to buy. As I mentioned in a reply, she suggested that those who can't work do work around the house to get presents from their parents, those who missed an episode to rent, etc, etc. Perhaps it is the tone the ANN article set that adds to the confusion, but never did I feel Toboso sensei was "yelling" at or "berating" fans in her entry.
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Almaz



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 134

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:14 am Reply with quote
I ran the website through Google translate. Of course it did not do well. I would like to read the original article. Not the glamorized standard "news phrasing" on ANN. Any one good at Japanese willing to translate so people can get all of what is being said. I am sure ANN did give the general content of the message. I just like to read it from the horses mouth.
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GokuMew2



Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 1630
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:20 am Reply with quote
Almaz wrote:
I ran the website through Google translate. Of course it did not do well. I would like to read the original article. Not the glamorized standard "news phrasing" on ANN. Any one good at Japanese willing to translate so people can get all of what is being said. I am sure ANN did give the general content of the message. I just like to read it from the horses mouth.


I'm working on it.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3199
Location: NE Ohio

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:20 am Reply with quote
Tanteikingdomkey wrote:
agila61 wrote:
Sunday Silence wrote:
Quote:
In the words of a certain steely fellow, this violates the Law of Equivalent Exchange!


Wrong when you take it to a worldwide level.


For crying out loud, she's writing to Japanese fans. Its her BLOG, in JAPANESE. Anyone who can read the blog can at the very least import the Japanese manga directly and just read it.

then why did it mention the US releases of the anime and manga and funimation and yen press? I think it was also aimed at us


I don't remember which page the rough translation was in, so I am looking at the article.

I don't see anything in the article that suggests she did. Of course, the article is written for ANN, so it provides context for US readers. Let me BOLD FACE those sentences that report on Ms. Toboso, and ITALICS those that are not reporting directly on Ms. Toboso and so may be presumed to be reporting facts independently.

Quote:
Yana Toboso, the creator of the Black Butler (Kuroshitsuji) manga and anime, criticized unauthorized videos and downloads of anime and manga in a Sunday blog entry. She began by noting that she does not like to preach, but felt like saying a few words about this issue. Both seasons of the Kuroshitsuji anime are currently streaming in Japan on the Nico Nico Douga website, and Funimation is also streaming the two seasons in North America. However, Toboso emphasized that watching the anime on sites besides the official video-streaming websites is prohibited. She added that reading the manga through unauthorized downloads, CD-ROMs, and other means besides Square Enix's publications is prohibited in Japan as of 2010. (Yen Press publishes the manga in North America.)


You will note that each sentence reporting on what Ms. Toboso said indicates that,

ArsenicSteel wrote:
{myself} wrote:
Edit: If it was transparent, it would be easy to see how it works. Hard to see how it works is obscure.
Oh like transparent tape?


Like "transparency in government", something often promised but rarely delivered. But anyway the promise is making it easy to see how government works. Like the transparent man or woman at the local science museum makes it easier to understand anatomy.


Last edited by agila61 on Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
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Location: NE Ohio

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:25 am Reply with quote
Sunday Silence wrote:
And I seriously doubt people want to [pay the cost of shipping] after the S&H fees kick in.

I was thinking of getting the entire series of OverRev! and My Favorite Carerra, and you know what the S&H was? $400.00 for $150.00 worth of manga!


Airmail or surface book shipping?

And of course, there's a growing amount of manga available for digital download, and the freight on that is quite reasonable.
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Tanteikingdomkey



Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 1476

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:28 am Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
Tanteikingdomkey wrote:
agila61 wrote:
Sunday Silence wrote:
Quote:
In the words of a certain steely fellow, this violates the Law of Equivalent Exchange!


Wrong when you take it to a worldwide level.


For crying out loud, she's writing to Japanese fans. Its her BLOG, in JAPANESE. Anyone who can read the blog can at the very least import the Japanese manga directly and just read it.

then why did it mention the US releases of the anime and manga and funimation and yen press? I think it was also aimed at us


I don't remember which page the rough translation was in, so I am looking at the article.

I don't see anything in the article that suggests she did. Of course, the article is written for ANN, so it provides context for US readers. Let me BOLD FACE those sentences that report on Ms. Toboso, and ITALICS those that are not reporting directly on Ms. Toboso and so may be presumed to be reporting facts independently.

Quote:
Yana Toboso, the creator of the Black Butler (Kuroshitsuji) manga and anime, criticized unauthorized videos and downloads of anime and manga in a Sunday blog entry. She began by noting that she does not like to preach, but felt like saying a few words about this issue. Both seasons of the Kuroshitsuji anime are currently streaming in Japan on the Nico Nico Douga website, and Funimation is also streaming the two seasons in North America. However, Toboso emphasized that watching the anime on sites besides the official video-streaming websites is prohibited. She added that reading the manga through unauthorized downloads, CD-ROMs, and other means besides Square Enix's publications is prohibited in Japan as of 2010. (Yen Press publishes the manga in North America.)


You will note that each sentence reporting on what Ms. Toboso said indicates that,

opps my bad
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BuckwheatNoodle



Joined: 16 Aug 2010
Posts: 45
Location: Kanagawa, Japan

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:29 am Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
Sunday Silence wrote:
And I seriously doubt people want to [pay the cost of shipping] after the S&H fees kick in.

I was thinking of getting the entire series of OverRev! and My Favorite Carerra, and you know what the S&H was? $400.00 for $150.00 worth of manga!


Airmail or surface book shipping?

And of course, there's a growing amount of manga available for digital download, and the freight on that is quite reasonable.


Referring back to my previous post on merchandise markups in America....

$400 for $150 worth of manga is about 2.6~2.7.

Sorry, but you can't help the shipping costs, the Yen to Dollar exchange rate, and other taxes.
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Sheleigha



Joined: 09 May 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:31 am Reply with quote
What about if using http://www.kinokuniya.com/​ ?
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