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Dessa
Baka RangerBaka Ranger


Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 2659

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:05 pm Reply with quote
Alright, got a hold of my friend.

1 - Yes, they're light novels, not full novels

2 - Yes, there are multiple editions. She says she has the 2nd edition, but I'm not sure if that's the newest

3 - The 2011 set is most likely the new set that got released for the anime, which has new cover art.

But it looks like they're all the same series.
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nightjuan



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 1419

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:22 am Reply with quote
Since this forum topic appears to be the most appropriate place to make these suggestions, here's my attempt to help make some sense out of the slightly confusing relations involving Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion (TV).

Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion Knight (manga)
Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion Queen (manga)

Both are humorous manga anthologies created by various artists, so I believe these should be listed as "parody" (or equivalent terms) instead of "side story" since they are basically just licensed collections of funny shorts and doujinshi works. That description also matches one of their reviews here.

Code Geass: Akito the Exiled (OAV)

As mentioned in the plot summary already found in the encyclopedia entry, this is actually set roughly during the same chronological time period as the original TV series, so it is more of a proper "side story" than the previous works.

Code Geass: Nunnally in Wonderland (OAV)

As the title and plot summary would suggest, this OAV is an even more explicit "parody" tale where all the characters end up becoming part of the Alice in Wonderland universe.

Code Geass: Tales of an Alternate Shogunate (manga)

This is an "alternate retelling" set in Bakumatsu Japan, as indicated here. It is also probably the worst of these, but I digress. Laughing

Code Geass: Nightmare of Nunnally (manga)
Code Geass: Suzaku of the Counterattack (manga)

Both of these manga are also "alternate retellings" of the original series, as mentioned here and here, among other places.
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dormcat
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Joined: 08 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:49 am Reply with quote
nightjuan wrote:
Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion Knight (manga)
Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion Queen (manga)

Both are humorous manga anthologies created by various artists, so I believe these should be listed as "parody" (or equivalent terms) instead of "side story" since they are basically just licensed collections of funny shorts and doujinshi works. That description also matches one of their reviews here.

Unfortunately, "parody" is not one of those relationship we have.

Quote:
Code Geass: Akito the Exiled (OAV)

As mentioned in the plot summary already found in the encyclopedia entry, this is actually set roughly during the same chronological time period as the original TV series, so it is more of a proper "side story" than the previous works.

A "side story" would focus on the same protagonist(s).

Quote:
Code Geass: Nunnally in Wonderland (OAV)

As the title and plot summary would suggest, this OAV is an even more explicit "parody" tale where all the characters end up becoming part of the Alice in Wonderland universe.

Same as the first two. Changed to "spinoff."

Quote:
Code Geass: Tales of an Alternate Shogunate (manga)

This is an "alternate retelling" set in Bakumatsu Japan, as indicated here. It is also probably the worst of these, but I digress. Laughing

I'm afraid that "alternate retelling" is not used in this way. A "spinoff" is defined as "same characters, different universe (or vice versa)." An "alternate retelling" would be "same basic premise, story diverges."

Quote:
Code Geass: Nightmare of Nunnally (manga)
Code Geass: Suzaku of the Counterattack (manga)

Both of these manga are also "alternate retellings" of the original series, as mentioned here and here, among other places.

Same as described above.
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nightjuan



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 1419

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:47 am Reply with quote
I defer to your knowledge of encyclopedia policy and/or practice, but please let me make a couple of statements.

dormcat wrote:

Unfortunately, "parody" is not one of those relationship we have.


It should be pointed out that there seem to be exceptions to this statement, because some productions have already been listed as such. For example, consider Gundam Seed Character Theater for Gundam SEED and SD Gundam for the original Gundam, both which are currently considered as "parody" in terms of the relationships found on the entries for the respective original works they came from (SEED and Gundam), though not on their own individual entries.

Please check the four links above in order to confirm that yourself. Perhaps this was actually a custom relationship, so to speak, or some other line of thought was involved at the time, but the term "parody" has been used in encyclopedia relationships before.

Quote:
A "side story" would focus on the same protagonist(s).


I'm willing to concede that point as far as encyclopedia use is concerned, in the end, but for the sake of the record...numerous works which do not follow this reasoning still have the words "side story" or "Gaiden" in their descriptions or plot summaries and English/Japanese titles, even if they happen to involve a different cast of characters.

In fact, Akito the Exiled was originally known as Code Geass Gaiden when first announced, as seen here. I'm not particularly bothered, either way, but it is curious to see that the anime/manga industry itself has a more liberal understanding of the term.

More importantly, it's still very odd to consider comedy works like Knight and Queen as a "side story" of the original though, when they're just a bunch of random out-of-universe jokes with no relevance to the main storyline, with little or no internal chronology. To take a page from previous posts, they're basically like Carnival Phantasm or Take-Moon.

Quote:
I'm afraid that "alternate retelling" is not used in this way. A "spinoff" is defined as "same characters, different universe (or vice versa)." An "alternate retelling" would be "same basic premise, story diverges."


Well, please keep in mind that I was going by how several ANN reviews and news articles, among other sources, have used the term "alternate retelling" when referring to these works, so this isn't just me going crazy or something. Wink

Suzaku's and Nunnally's manga stories, in particular, could be described as sharing the same basic premise and setting of the original story, despite their differences in perspective, and in several cases they end up re-enacting episodes and/or sequences taken from the main plot of the TV series. The first divergences start in situations equivalent to episode 1 of the anime, for instance.


Last edited by nightjuan on Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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Shiroi Hane
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:14 am Reply with quote
The actual relation for those Gundam titles is "related", with "parody" added as a comment.
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nightjuan



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 1419

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:16 am Reply with quote
Sorry, I honestly wasn't sure about how that worked...but can't it be used as a comment in these cases (Knight, Queen, Nunnally in Wonderland) then? That seems fitting.
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Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:28 am Reply with quote
Neither did I till the other day when I added a comment purely as an NB to other staff, not realising it would be displayed next to the relationship on the page ^^;

Since my sempai dormcat has already spoken on this, I'm going to wait for his opinion before doing anything.
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 08 Dec 2003
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Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:32 am Reply with quote
I'll make things clearer by showing all available relationship links only visible in the background:



nightjuan wrote:
It should be pointed out that there seem to be exceptions to this statement, because some productions have already been listed as such. For example, consider Gundam Seed Character Theater for Gundam SEED and SD Gundam for the original Gundam, both which are currently considered as "parody" in terms of the relationships found on the entries for the respective original works they came from (SEED and Gundam), though not on their own individual entries.

Please check the four links above in order to confirm that yourself. Perhaps this was actually a custom relationship, so to speak, or some other line of thought was involved at the time, but the term "parody" has been used in encyclopedia relationships before.

If you look carefully, you'd see "parody" only exists in the "parent" page (in the case of Gundam Seed and Character Theater, the former), but on the "daughter" page there's only "related to" link. Turned out the staff (not recorded; probably even myself) used a little override command to show the "parody" in the "parent" page. I've never used that overriding trick for at least five years (if ever) so please excuse me a little for not remembering it. Embarassed

I'd mark those as parodies as you requested, but "parody" will not be a formal relationship in that pull-down menu shown above, as it only indicates the show would be comedic but, depending the script, could happen in different timelines.


Quote:
I'm willing to concede that point as far as encyclopedia use is concerned, in the end, but for the sake of the record...numerous works which do not follow this reasoning still have the words "side story" or "Gaiden" in their descriptions or plot summaries and English/Japanese titles, even if they happen to involve a different cast of characters.

"Gaiden" gives the author maximum freedom; it can be just about anything. All the author needs would be a single element to keep the gaiden connected to honpen (本編). The system of our Encyclopedia wants to dissect this overly generic descriptor into more detailed and specific types of relationship.

Quote:
Well, please keep in mind that I was going by how several ANN reviews and news articles, among other sources, have used the term "alternate retelling" when referring to these works, so this isn't just me going crazy or something. Wink

(Sigh)

I've been whining for years that reviewers should work more closely with encyclopedists, but (sigh again).


EDITED: So it was Shiroi Hane who marked those "parody." Wink
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Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 6096
Location: Wales

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:40 am Reply with quote
'twern't me guvnor. I just recognised how it was done since I happened to stumble on that function recently.

PS, relationships are dissected here:
animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1005479#1005479
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nightjuan



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 1419

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:12 pm Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:

I'd mark those as parodies as you requested, but "parody" will not be a formal relationship in that pull-down menu shown above, as it only indicates the show would be comedic but, depending the script, could happen in different timelines.


Understood. I agree that it would be fine to just mark them as "parody" according to the override method described above, even if it's not a formal relationship in the menu.

I offer my thanks to both you and Shiroi Hane for making things clear.

Quote:

"Gaiden" gives the author maximum freedom; it can be just about anything. All the author needs would be a single element to keep the gaiden connected to honpen (本編). The system of our Encyclopedia wants to dissect this overly generic descriptor into more detailed and specific types of relationship.


That principle is certainly reasonable. Maybe the system could still be tweaked a little bit in the future, in terms of becoming even more specific when it comes to the different types of "spinoff" productions also considered as "side stories" in other circles, but I get it now. My apologies for any misunderstandings involved.
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Calathan
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Joined: 27 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:59 am Reply with quote
Currently, Kimagure Orange Road (OAV) is listed as a sequel of Kimagure Orange Road: The Movie. However, even though the OAVs were made after the movie, they takes place earlier in the series continuity. The main love triangle is resolved in the first movie, so the OAVs can't be happening after the movie. Since the "sequel" relationship is only used when the new title takes place after the older title, I don't think the OAVs should be a sequel of the movie. I think the OAVs do take place after the TV series though (basically, I think they are taking place in a gap in time between the TV series and the movie, though I haven't seen the TV series so I'm not 100% certain).

I think it might work best to link the OAV series as another sequel of the TV series (with no link from the OAVs to the movie), and then link the second movie as a sequel to the first movie (since it happens after the first movie). Another option would be to link the OAVs as a prequel of the first movie, but that would seem kind of odd to me, as it isn't a prequel in relation to the main part of the anime franchise, the TV series.
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Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:08 am Reply with quote
If you haven't seen the TV series they could potentially be a side-story rather than a sequel?
I haven't seen any of it. I assume someone else out there has though?
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Calathan
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:07 pm Reply with quote
Shiroi Hane wrote:
If you haven't seen the TV series they could potentially be a side-story rather than a sequel?
I haven't seen any of it. I assume someone else out there has though?


I was checking various fansites and reviews of the series, and some said that the OAVs have the characters in high school while they were in middle school in the TV series. However, some other sites I checked indicated that the OAVs could fit somewhere in the TV series continuity, and that there isn't a definitive time when they happen. The impression that I'm getting is that the first couple OAVs are made so that they could happen at some point during the TV series, and the later OAVs are definitively after the TV series. It's been a long time since I saw the OAVs, so I don't really remember if the characters' ages changed over the course of the OAVs. However, it sounds to me like the OAVs are a mix of side-stories and sequels to the TV series.
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doc-watson42
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Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:59 pm Reply with quote
Shiroi Hane wrote:
If you haven't seen the TV series they could potentially be a side-story rather than a sequel?
I haven't seen any of it. I assume someone else out there has though?

I have—even the Jump Festa pilot OAV. (Me: "Madoka-chaaaaaannn!" EmbarassedRazz )

Calathan wrote:
I was checking various fansites and reviews of the series, and some said that the OAVs have the characters in high school while they were in middle school in the TV series. However, some other sites I checked indicated that the OAVs could fit somewhere in the TV series continuity, and that there isn't a definitive time when they happen. The impression that I'm getting is that the first couple OAVs are made so that they could happen at some point during the TV series, and the later OAVs are definitively after the TV series. It's been a long time since I saw the OAVs, so I don't really remember if the characters' ages changed over the course of the OAVs. However, it sounds to me like the OAVs are a mix of side-stories and sequels to the TV series.

The continuity between the television series and the OAVs is a bit off. The last episode of the TV series ends with spoiler[Madoka (arguably?) aware of Kyousuke's powers, and Madoka and Kyousuke acknowledging their love for each other], neither of which are taken into account in the OAVs. "Side stories" to the TV series would probably be safest.
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Devil Doll



Joined: 07 Jul 2007
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Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:56 pm Reply with quote
Watched and reviewed all of KOR. The OVA episodes can't be located exactly within the series' time line (48 episodes) but using series events that are referenced by the OVA it is possible to give an estimated position.

OVA 1 (1989)
  • White Lovers (episodes 35-45)
  • Hawaiian Suspense (episodes 15-25)
  • I was a Cat, I was a Fish (episodes 15-30)
  • Hurricane! Akane, the shape-shifting girl (episodes 20-25)

OVA 2 (1990)
  • Stage of Love = Heart on Fire I: Spring is for Idols (after episode 22 where Madoka became a guest keyboarder in a band)
  • Stage of Love = Heart on Fire II: Birth of a Star (episodes 23-30, direct continuation of "Spring is for Idols")
  • Unexpected Situation (after the "Akane" story from Kimagure Orange Road OVA 1)
  • Message in Rouge (after the TV series ending)

So +1 for "side stories", with Message in Rouge" being the only one qualifying for "sequel".
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