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Group D-29
Ashitaka, Princess Mononoke
vs.
Kamina, Gurren Lagann

Ashitaka. I'm still set on consistently voting against Kamina whenever possible or only voting for him in half-hearted manner, he never was my favorite character in Gurren Lagann, but what's particularly relevant to this round is that the case for Ashitaka is strong enough. It may well be said that being humble and thoughtful are not inherently heroic traits, but the contrast and its consequences is important here. Kamina does have a considerable amount of bravery and he does become a very important inspirational figure for Simon and others, but at this late stage in the contest that's not enough to compensate for his personal flaws. Kamina is the kind of person who may well act in favor of others but, with some notable exceptions, seems to almost automatically demand acknowledgement even when he's not aggressively actively asking for it, while Ashitaka actually earns such admiration without intentionally showing off.

Group D-30
Simon, Gurren Lagann
vs.
Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms

Voting for Simon has been a constant for me, since I agree with everyone else who has explained how and why he is able to overcome Kamina in pretty much every way imaginable, but the important issue here is why I'm not voting for Youko. She's a wonderful example of what character development can accomplish and, in and of itself, that deserves much recognition, but although her own decisions were also important, the particular circumstances of the new world she had to face were a key factor in determining the final result. Put her in a different situation and perhaps the outcome would be very different. To a certain extent that applies to Simon or any other character as well. But even from early on, he already had certain virtues that demonstrated a certain heroic potential, and initiative. One could speak about the difference in scale too, if absolutely necessary.

Round 4 is now closed. . .

. . .and it ended with what was by far the most competitive match of the round. The Ashitake/Kamina match was tied on six different occasions (including as recently as Monday morning) and never saw a lead greater than 3 votes on either side, but thanks to the last two posted votes going in his favor, Ashitaka ekes out a 12-10 win to cut off the potential all-Gurren Lagann death match. By contrast Youko started off competitively but ultimately ran out of steam, as Simon racked up the final dozen votes in his favor to cruise towards an ultimate 17-5 victory.

The updated Power Rankings for the survivors is as follows:

1. Duck, 92.3%
2. Kenshin, 89.1%
3. Balsa, 88.3%
4. Shu, 86.6%
5. Nausicaa, 80.8%
6. Simon, 78.8%
7. Ashitaka, 71.7%
8. Vash, 68.9%

Notably, the last two wouldn't rank in the Top 8 if those eliminated in this round were still included. (Despite losses, Kamina, Kurau, and Youko were all ahead of Ashitaka on % of votes.)

For a further breakdown:
*1 is a magical girl;
*1 is a mecha pilot;
*1 is a samurai;
*1 is a bodyguard;
*2 effectively start as leaders of their respective people;
*1 is a fugitive with a massive bounty on his head;
*1 is a boy with a stick.

So we have quite an amazing diversity here, with a wide variety of genres represented, though fantasy and sci fi predominate.

Anyway, enough analysis. The Group Finals will begin very shortly.

Round 5: Groups A and B Finals is now open!

For those new to these tournaments, we start pairing up Groups at this point because it seems a waste of time to continue into a single-match cycle. (Well, except for the championship bout.) These matches will decide who goes on to the Final Four, and given the contestants involved, they should be much more competitive than most of last round was.

Also, a special note on the new video clips in the Guide entries: The clips for Balsa and Vash were chosen specifically to showcase scenes involving acts of questionable heroism. Both contestants have to make the choice of whether or not to take the life of an evil person in order to save the lives of innocents. This of course goes against their vows not to kill again, but it could be argued that their heroism is shown in that in some rare cases one must go against their strongest principles if it is for the greater good. (Both are also damn good clips, if I must say so myself.)

Group A Final
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin franchise
vs.
Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There

Group B Final
Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit
vs.
Vash the Stampede, Trigun

I've rarely been one to wait around on making my votes, so here goes. . .

Group A Final
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin franchise
vs.
Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There

Tough, tough match-up. Kenshin is a much-beloved character in these forums with some powerful merits, but in Shu he has has an opponent who can match (or at least counter) his every strength. Both perform many daring feats of heroic action, both are fiercely dedicated towards preserving life and not killing people even in situations which make sticking to principles very difficult, and both attempt to get even their worst opponents to see the error of their ways and reform. Kenshin must struggle to atone for what he sees as the sins of his past, while Shu must struggle to maintain a vital spirit of hope even in the darkest of circumstances. Both diligently work towards something better.

So how do you draw the line between them without relying purely on personal preference? For me, I'm going with Shu simply because he's still heroic despite having less to support his heroism. Unlike Kenshin, he is not an individual of uncommon skill; he's just a kid with a stick, and yet he doesn't let even the most terrible of circumstances (including torture) daunt him. His very powerful clip for this round is the other reason why; sometimes the most heartfelt heroism comes on the small scale rather than the grand one.

Group B Final
Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit
vs.
Vash the Stampede, Trigun

Another toughie, since in many senses these are very similar characters and their clips for this round show them having to do very similar things under very similar circumstances. I'm going to give Balsa the edge here because, unlike Vash, she never fails to impress me with her confidence, all-around strength of character, and ability to be heroic despite a workmanlike approach.

The rather unexpected defeat of Kamina by Ashitaka left the results for most people at 4 points, the Gurren Lagann pair being the popular choice this round. Fortunately for Mad_Scientist, this means Key is now only in the lead by 3 points. Similarly, JesuOtaku pulled out of the tie for 7th and just behind DerekTheRed. Aside from that, we need to look down to double digit placing (primarily the last four) to notice any change in the mini-game rankings.

One more was knocked out of competition for prizes, and another can now at best make third. The field is dwindling, but there is still time for a turn of luck for the leading third.

Results.

Group A Final
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin franchise
vs.
Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There

The video clip of Shu brought tears to my eyes. What a tough, compassionate kid. He gets my vote.

Group B Final
Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit
vs.
Vash the Stampede, Trigun

Deeply disappointed that Youko didn't win. So I'm going to stick with Balsa. Maybe her heroism had a more narrow scope than Vash's but it was very important to those who it involved.

Unrelated question, I am going to be almost certainly be on vacation without my laptop during both the semifinal and final rounds. Vote will really carry impact then, is there anyway to pm you ahead of time with my votes before I leave? I might be back for the end or the beginning of one of the rounds, but I'm certain I'll miss one week entirely for sure.

A final: Shu Maritani
I've been impressed with Shu's clips since day 1 (so to say), but Kenshin's...not so much and this week was no exception for me with him. I'm pretty much unfamiliar with all the contestants both rounds (unlike next one, where I actually know all 4 characters and already have my votes decided), so here, I'm going pretty much exclusively on clips and word of mouth. Shu's clip, once again, impressed me more, but if he was up against Tenma, this vote wouldn't be so easy for me.

B final: Vash the Stampede
Once again, Balsa has proven to be a badass fighter and I'd certainly vote for her in a badass tournament based on her clips, but this clip to me shows disregard for others and her fighting very badassly once again. I also feel that she should realize that some people need to be killed. Her clips from the previous weeks haven't impressed me either. On the other hand, Vash's clip was pretty awesome for starters and indicated that I should perhaps start reading the Maximum manga that I got cheap about 7 months ago. Bt even at the point of exhaustion, he dropped his gun to depend innocents, rather than put them in danger by his own doing. I think Vash handled his clip situation much better than Balsa, so my vote easily goes to him, his expression at doing what he had to do was painful, and I can respect that much easier.

Group A Final
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin franchise
vs.
Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There

Shu Maritani
This kid faces difficult situations and does not give in to despair. Plus, he does not possess abilities that would make his situation easier to deal with.

Group B Final
Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit
vs.
Vash the Stampede, Trigun

Balsa has all the characteristic of a hero. Moreover, as I said in a previous round, the way Vash is handled is mediocre, which makes it hard for me to perceive such a generic hero as an inspiration.

classicalzawa wrote:

Unrelated question, I am going to be almost certainly be on vacation without my laptop during both the semifinal and final rounds. Vote will really carry impact then, is there anyway to pm you ahead of time with my votes before I leave? I might be back for the end or the beginning of one of the rounds, but I'm certain I'll miss one week entirely for sure.

Well, if you were allowed to (I cannot speak for Key in that regard), you would have to provide "backup" votes in case your first-choice picks were eliminated. It's certainly doable, considering we are in finals territory and there aren't many candidates left.

Yay, I can vote again! I just don't like voting purely on what other people say, and since I've only seen part of Twelve Kingdoms and remember nothing about Princess Mononoke (except for not liking it), it wouldn't have been right. Too late in the game to choose arbitrarily.

Group A Final

Shu Maritani is definitely my choice. Kenshin may overcome a dark past, and that's great, but Shu from a young age with a stick chooses to save rather than kill. There are many more reasons for selecting him, but that's one of the big ones.

Group B Final

Vash the Stampede is still one of my favorite heroes. To be able to keep a disconnect from heroism from time to time, to make it casual and less of a "I'm a hero!" sort of personality, I like it. Balsa sounds good, but I am going to stick to what I actually know works for me.

Group A Final
Voting for: Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There

Reasons: Everything I have heard about this kid has been super impressive. It might be the second title that I watch because of this tournament, the first having been Princess Tutu.

Group B Final
Voting for: Vash the Stampede, Trigun

Reasons: Balsa also sounds super impressive but I know that Vash is and haven't heard enough to make me turn away from voting for him yet.

Group A Final: Shu Maritani
Seeing as my mini-game's been shot to hell, might as well course off of it and vote for one of the guy's I nominated. Sure Kenshin's had a dark past, but he didn't have to endure torture, forced involvement in a military, and seeing a crazed fellow like Hamdo like Shu had.

Group B Final: Vash the Stampede
One of anime's well-known pacifists with a strong love for all humanity. I'm not familiar enough with Balsa to want to consider trying to vote for her over Vash.

Group A Final
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin franchise
vs.
Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There

Shu. For as much as Kenshin is an icon and a valiant individual, he's also in a position where he outclasses most problematic individuals he runs across. Everyone's said this multiple times now, but let's face it: all Shu has is a stick. Sometimes. Most times, not even that. I've already seen this show, and rewatching that clip also moved me to big messy tears. Just...WOW. You want to believe that there are people like that in this world, and if there are, I believe a lot of them would be children.

It's just not fair to Kenshin that he has such incredible competition.

Group B Final
Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit
vs.
Vash the Stampede, Trigun

This match, however, is just going to come down to preferences across the board. I didn't...uh...finish Moribito, (got bored...got a little repetitive and confusing...I'm immature, anyhoo, moving on!) but I didn't see any flaws in Balsa's heroic figure, really. Goodness knows I have Trigun memorized and find Vash to be a pretty flawless hero, but for the many similarities they share in circumstance, they could not be more different types of heroes. It's just going to come down to preference.

My number one criterion for a hero that breaks tough ties like these is, of course, selflessness. I think that's the truest mark of a heroic individual. If someone is very others-minded, all of that other stuff seems to fall into place. This might help explain the amount of support behind Tohru, a character whose only ability is to clean house and talk to people, still considered very heroic at the outset of the tournament. On that front, I have no doubt that Vash, along with Shu, Duck, and Ashitaka, are the most self-sacrificing, compassionate and purehearted characters in this tournament, so those are the ones I'll be pulling for from this point on now that we're left with nothing but strong contenders.

Vash the Stampede is in the unique position of not being in a fight against evil that wants to kill him or his friends. His enemy's goal is to make Vash compromise his principles. Vash fights himself and what he wants to do versus what he should do far more than he fights other people. What makes him able to endure all this trial and tribulation? He doesn't think about himself and what he wants as naturally because he is so others-focused. He gives money and food away freely, he changes people's lives who don't ask for it and then asks for nothing in return, and this is BEFORE the villains show up. Once they do, he tries to save them too, (see his words to Midvalley in the clip, who is second in perversion only to Legato) even while brandishing the weapons necessary to protect innocents, and whether you find this admirable or just foolish is your preference. (Wolfwood is present in the story to show what the alternative really looks like: no matter how wicked someone is, killing them may only be deemed the necessary evil, but never heroic.)

Weirdly enough, I'd say Vash is a combination of Onizuka's inspirational kindness and Balsa's stubborn fighting spirit. He has all aspects of heroism that people admire in bulk except authoritativeness/initiative, which, of course, is situational. He's a wanted man, everyone blames their problems on him, and anytime he ever tries to hunt down the individual who's helping to pin these accusations on him, dozens of people get killed. I'd lay low, too! He does a lot for a wanted man.

So for those who prefer charismatic, authoritative, and discretionary aspects of heroism, views will tend to slant the other way, but I can't not vote for Vash over Balsa, who is heroic and does have a strong code of ethics and responsibility, but not the big bleeding heart for all humanity that seems more angel-like than human, and therefore, just more heroic to me. Balsa, despite having done nothing to be ashamed of, takes on her quest out of a desire to fill a void of redemption in her own heart. It DEFINITELY seems to evolve into more than that, but again, I'm drawn more to mercy for one's enemies than atonement for one's peace as a basic motive for a hero as well.

Also, this has NOTHING to do with heroicism, (and seeing as Simon is considered a strong contender, it shouldn't come up in this match,) but a few people don't like Vash because they think he's a shallow, cartoony Goku-like character who is just a pacifist because the writer wanted him to be and isn't realistic. Well, if that does matter to people, I would compare Trigun to GTO in that it appears very screwy and unrealistic, but has characters that are very well developed and very human without resorting to expositional dialogue to make you believe it. (And we all know how far Onizuka got, with very good reason.)

Vash is over 130 years old, with the body of a man in his twenties. Therefore, he's seen a lot of hardship and seen a lot of friends grow old and die without him. Despite that, he's not an old soul. He lost his mother at the physical age of 10 or so, but the literal and emotional age of 2, which left him in sore need of a mentor figure, leading him to talk to Rem frequently in his dreams...and lead many viewers to realize he's unwittingly developed some obvious Oedipus Rex. After that, his only guiding influence was his brother, who he wanted to have compassion for at every turn, but mostly just feared as a monster. So he never really matured, which explains his extreme sensitivity, openness, and willingness to give people the benefit of the doubt. Despite extreme intelligence, he's emotionally a big five year old. (Every time he arrives in a new city, he starts playing with schoolyard brats instead of hanging out with adults...) Despite all the threats and fear from Knives, he still stayed close to his psychopathic brother and prevented him from hurting humans, and also keeping his own principles intact, despite years of persuasive speeches from Knives, until it became WAY too much of a hazard and he took his brothers' weapons from him and vamoosed.

He holds this reservation of separation from humanity for himself as well, which is part of why he's so selfless, deciding to put humanity above himself and other Plants, who are stronger and therefore have more to give to the weaker human species they protect. Not that he's self-loathing for being a little scary. He hates the idea of suicide more than anything, and only values true self-sacrifice. He intentionally makes people believe he's an idiot to protect innocents and thus puts forth his goof-face, but it's not a deceitful facade. Vash really wants to be a carefree and kind little kid, so he puts that genuine aspect of himself forward and hopes people will accept it and forget that outlaw image. (Never works out that way. Too many enemies.)

So he's a 130 year old in the body of a twenty year old superman with the brains of a supercomputer and chooses, despite hellish hardship, to have the pure heart of a child. That sounds pretty unusual, complicated, and developed to me. Just in case there was some stigma that Vash was cartoony and cliche.

Hey...has anyone else noticed this...? On the off-chance both Shu and Vash make it to the final, (big if, but still...)

...the entire final four will consist of child heroes or childlike heroes. Shu and Duck are literally purehearted children. Nausicaa, Ashitaka, and Simon all have some semblance of childish purity to them, although they are more authoritative than the others. Vash is also a childlike character, weird as that is.

This is hypothetical, but it still really surprises me. Purehearted children are NOT the first image to pop into your head when you think hero. At least for me, I tend to think of superheroes and Kamina-ish figures, but when it comes to examining virtues, that's not really the image, is it? Apparently, the consensus is that a true hero is a lot gentler and purer than that.

Group A:
Voting for: Shu
Reason: As much as this vote pains me, I have to agree with those saying that the fact that this kid is not a trained fighter, and how he never gives up despite the terrible situations he is in, do give him an edge here. Although, I still think that Kenshin is a stronger choice than almost every other character remaining.

Group B:
Voting for: Balsa

Reason: I hope I don't open up another major discussion with this reason like I did last round, but in my mind Vash is just as much comic relief as he is hero. He is heroic, but I just can't take him as seriously as I can Balsa. Balsa shares every positive trait that Vash has, and on top of that is a maternal figure to more than one character over the course of the series. I feel she has a decisive edge here.

A-final
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin
Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There
Voting for: Shu
Because Shu doesn't have any incredible skill, he's just a boy fighting desperately for what's right, against brutal enemies.

B-final
Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit
Vash the Stampede, Trigun
Balsa
You know how Vash wants to save EVERYONE? Both the spider and the butterfly (which is a flawed analogy, because the spider has to eat other creatures to live, while people don't have to kill other people, but anyway)? So, how does he go about saving the spiders? By crying and pleading with them? Humility and selflessness may be noble traits, but that's a rather ineffective use of them. How many of the Gung-ho Guns did Vash save? I recall: none. He didn't kill any himself until Legato, but they all died pretty much right after losing to him. Vash's ideals don't actually save the people who need saving the most.

Vash's idealism is probably more than a little naive, and maybe I shouldn't fault him for that, since he's been able to hold onto it for so long, but after all that time, the best way he's found to spread his message to the malicious and the oppressors of the innocent is to grovel and beg them to change their ways?

One of Balsa's good qualities that hasn't been shown in the clips scene so far is the maternal nurturing she provides to Chagum throughout the series. She protects him, but she doesn't coddle him. She forces him to interact with other people, which will provide him with valuable insight as a ruler.

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