Forum - View topicBest Supporting Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
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RHachicho
 Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
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No I don't think you missed anything but I do think you trivialised it. Her advice to others tho subtle was hardly cryptic. And was often right on the mark. And the fight too was a dramatic moment. spoiler[She even went as far as to help Ryuuji and Taiga despite her feelings proving how much she had grown.] This post also doubles as notification of a vote change I have been persuaded by arguments against Akio and am changing my vote to Ami. It's still close for me but I think that Ami is the deeper less cliched character. Akio is great and deserved to get this far but he's edged out here. It would be clearly in Ami's favor but it seems unfair to penalise Akio for lack of growth he is after all a role model figure for Tomoya tbh. Growth is unexpected and unlikeley. Last edited by RHachicho on Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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They may have been "on the mark" but it didn't result in any change. In other words, it was unheeded advice which is worthless. For the large amount of screentime that Ami had, she really didn't have much effect on the story in my opinion.
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RHachicho
Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
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I disagree I think what Ami said helped the MC figure out what he should really be doing. Even if he didn't respond directly to her I think he took her words to heart. He didn't follow them directly but they seemed to weigh on him and affect his decisions. Saying that they "didn't change anything" for certain implies that you know excactly what is going on inside a characters mind. In your interpretation it may seem that way but I am very sure of my position and I think many would agree with me
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Megiddo
Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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I guess in the end it all depends on what you find important.
I kind of think that spoiler[Giving Tomoya an ultimatum to prove his affection for Nagisa, letting Fuuko and later Tomoya live in his home, raising his dead daughter's daughter for 5 years because Tomoya had turned into a total mess and failure as a father was a little bit more important. As well as of course his backstory of finding Nagisa near dead in the snow and rushing off to a particular place and pleading for his daughter to be saved was quite emotional for me as well.] I find Akio did a heck of a lot more with his time on screen than Ami, despite the latter having so much more than him. Though if people just want to pidgeonhole him to just a "comic relief" character and miss everything he actually contributed to the story, then that's their issue. |
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bahumut75
 Posts: 65 Location: Rochester, NY |
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I very much support anyone who wants to vote for Ami on her own merits; even though I didn't like her I have to admit that she was a pretty influential character. However, I just don't personally think she can match up to the impact that Akio provides. Sure, Ami gives out advice to Takasu and Taiga, but she isn't the only one. spoiler[Kitamura and even Minori realize that Takasu and Taiga have feelings for each other, and they both play a role in pushing them towards each other at the end of the series.] Especially after watching through Toradora! a second, it seemed even more blatantly obvious that spoiler[Takasu and Taiga liked each other.] So much so, in fact, that I really think the ending would have been the same even without Ami's presence.
Akio, on the other hand, drastically changes the course of Clannad on more than one occasion, in my opinion. As others have mentioned, he takes Tomoya in and essentially treats him as a son. Without this support, I'm not sure Tomoya would have matured the way that he did. More importantly, he goes to great lengths to make Nagisa into a stronger person. spoiler[The scene where Akio bursts into Nagisa's play to tell her that he and Sanae have passed their dreams on to her is particularly powerful for me.] He really makes Nagisa believe in herself in a way that no one else, save Tomoya later on, could do. In After Story, without Akio and Sanae spoiler[to take care of Ushio, I can only imagine how different her development would have been if she was stuck with Tomoya who was sinking deeper into depression and alcoholism.] The final argument that I would like to make here, is that it is also Akio, and Sanae, who convince Tomoya to spoiler[take that trip with Ushio where he ends up meeting his grandmother / mother (I honestly don't remember which it was anymore...).] I think this was one of the biggest turning points in the latter bit of After Story, and it never would have happened without Akio's influence. **edited for minor spelling and grammar hiccups** Last edited by bahumut75 on Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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Group D-29
Kuu, Haibane Renmei vs. Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Voting for: Kuu It's already clear that the winner of this match will almost certainly be Tanda and, all things considered, there have been a number of good arguments in his favor throughout both this round and this tournament that are still enough to carry him forward one more time. Nevertheless, my vote goes to Kuu. One of the reasons is giving moral support for an underdog who seems to be getting barely any credit, in spite of also having some decent arguments on her side, and the other part of it has to do with my appreciation for what the last clip seems to be going for in terms of subtle yet powerful emotional impact. I'm fairly interested in seeing what led up to it and what might happen next. Perhaps that might, in fact, lead me to think she's been overrated but that is something I'd like to find out myself. For the record, however, I admit that Tanda's clip is definitely a good example of character build-up. Group D-30 Ami Kawashima, Toradora! vs. Akio Furukawa, Clannad franchise Voting for: Ami Kawashima Well, there's been lots of conflict about this one and it's interesting to know that this match seems to be a lot closer, but let's see...in terms of arguments I'm not getting the sense that any of them has a clear lead on paper and, what's more, both have received my support in the past...so, in a way, this is going to be decided by the clips and what they can possibly tell me about the two series and their respective characters. This is undeniably going to be more or less unfair, no matter how I vote, but...ultimately, while both characters are fairly versatile and also decent for comedy purposes, Ami Kawashima seems to be a bit more proactive and in a somewhat more interesting position given her two-faced nature. Not to say that Akio doesn't show signs of depth but, at least right now, I'm finding him marginally less impressive. Perhaps his impact is, as some have argued, superior but it's difficult for me to make a proper comparison on a level that goes beyond the theoretical. Like some of my previous votes, I might well come to regret this one in the future but that's entirely speculative at this point. |
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Olliff
 Posts: 550 |
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Group D-29
Kuu, Haibane Renmei vs. Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Personally, I found Kuu to be more essential to the series than Tanda was to his. Also I get a feeling that Tanda lacks presence and is more of background and more subdued character compared to the more memorable characters still left in this tournament. Group D-30 Ami Kawashima, Toradora! vs. Akio Furukawa, Clannad franchise Just can't get on the Ami bandwagon. Sure she stands out as a character, but beyond that she really doesn't add anything to the series in terms of solid roles other than being an extreme personality. I also feel that one of the reasons she has made it this far is because she has more development and back story than most, and I believe that is not in line with the spirit of this tournament. We are not voting for the most important or supporting character with the most focus, but the one that is the best crafted and adds the most to the series. Along those lines Akio is golden. He delivers heavy hitting emotion, support, and enough laughs to keep anyone happy even though he lacks the focus and attention that Ami receives. |
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mow123
 Posts: 339 |
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Group D-29
Kuu, Haibane Renmei vs. Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Honestly not impressed with either choice. Kuu is more essential, but she lacks a personality and depth. Tanda has depth but lacks presence, and is far too sedate and traditional as far as supporting characters go for my tastes. I suppose I'll go with the flow and vote for Tanda. Group D-30 Ami Kawashima, Toradora! vs. Akio Furukawa, Clannad franchise I can't stand Ami as a character. On paper, she seems like an interesting character with her 2 face routine, but other than her impressive first moments the series really doesn't do a whole lot with her character. Sure she meddles here and there, and gives hints that she may or may not like someone, but she fails to have a greater purpose. Akio has a purpose and he has my vote. I also found him much more likable and versatile than the attention wh -- I mean grabber that Ami is. |
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RHachicho
Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
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While undoubtably Akio was an inspiration of a father. I do not think his character was as interesting or involved as Ami's. Nor was he as cleverly written. Alot of what he did although powerful was very much stock in trade plot stuff. Ami is a character I have not seen much of before in Anime and I found her way of interacting to be more interesting than Akio's. Perhaps not as funny but it made her an interesting part of Toradora. Whearas Akio was little more than a reliable father figure and comedy relief. Which I think makes her support the shall we say "interestingness" of the plot in a way that Akio dousn't.
This comment is just insulting. If you wish for people to change their vote persuade them don't tell them that they are voting wrong as if you could read their minds please. For me this is certainly NOT the case I would not have voted for him originally had that been the case. I am aware of Akio's contributions to the plot. But Clannad's plot has a bit more scope than Toradora's. Toradora focuses on a Single relationship that of Ryuuji/Taiga. Clannad's story is somewhat larger. Encopassing to a much greater extend the family of the main couple and their friends. Ami does not need to accomplish as much relatively as Akio to be as important to her plot as Akio is to his .. this is my position. Toradora imo focuses far more on Ryuuji and Taiga's maturation as people and their developing relationship and the conversations and interactions with Ami played a heavy role in that. |
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Bluebeard
 Posts: 267 Location: Massachusetts |
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Group D-29
Kuu, Haibane Renmei vs. Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit I felt that Kuu played a very strong part in HR, being that there was a certain mystery about her that made you question what you otherwise take for granted. She was different than the other Haibane and showed us directly how not everyone's future is the same. Group D-30 Ami Kawashima, Toradora! vs. Akio Furukawa, Clannad franchise Akio is the strongest character in any series I have seen. Comedy aside, he not only helps Tomoya but Akio forces Tomoya to learn that he needs to be the one to help himself and he is in control of his own future. While you can argue that Clannad would be more of less the same without Akio, I don't feel that that could be said for After Story. spoiler[Without a family of his own, what would Tomoya do with Ushio after Nagisa's death?"] Akio and Sanae NEED to be there for Tomoya to make the story work. He is such a balance of comedy and maturity that both sides of his personality always feel in character. |
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RHachicho
Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
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I would like you to expand on this a bit further if you don't mind. What was it she made you question? Also I don't really think Kuu was mysterious at all she was one of the plainest people you could ever hope to meet. Also I am not sure how she showed anyone that "not everyones future is the same" I mean sorry but that sounds weak everyone knows that people have different futures. About the only way you could have the same future as someone is to be their conjoined twin. And even then you could easily find differences. This just seems like flowery words to me. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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11-10 to Akio? Or am I just subconsciously indulging in wishful thinking?
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18226 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 4 is now closed.
Results for Group D, based on 23 votes, are as follows: D-29 Tanda holds on for a win 15-8 despite a late surge by Kuu. D-30 Ami Kawashima edges out Akio 12-11 in a hard-fought battle. While Kuu did make a fairly impressive late run, she was simply down too far (at one point 12-2) to make up the difference. The other match ultimately hinged on a crucial late vote change, which swung the match out of the final point at which Ami and Akio were tied and gave Ami just enough of an advantage to hold on through a close-out run of Akio votes. While I personally think that the winner of D-30 was the one who should have won, I must also admit that this likely sets up a likely blow-out scenario in the Group Finals. Akio has enough color that he might have been able to exploit Tanda's weakness (he doesn't have the screen presence that most other Group finalists do), while Ami matches up poorly against Tanda's much less contestable influence on the plot and main characters. But that's an argument for two weeks from now. Power Rankings - Elite Eight (er, Nine) 1. Balalaika, 85.71429 2. Maes Hughes, 83.50515 3. Kisuke Urahara, 83.14607 4. Winry Rockbell, 74.72527 5. Lt. Yamamoto, 71.13402 6. Wakaba Tsukishima, 69.66292 7. Tanda, 67.41573 8. Ami Kawashima, 65.16854 9. Letopanyu Spoor, 60.43956 No real surprises here. The top three have remained at the top throughout, though whether or not all three will continue to advance is another story, as at least two of them have very difficult competition. Notably, Group D has been the tightest (some would say weakest) Group overall, as its survivors hold the #7 and #8 spots. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18226 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 5: Groups A and B Finals are now closed.
Results can be found here. As in the past, this round will feature the Group Finals from two Groups paired up each week to avoid having only one match to debate. Consider these matches carefully, as these will determine Final Four participants. The second match-up in particular looks to be a daunting one and perhaps the most dynamic three-way we've ever had, as it's hard to say that anyone has a clear advantage from the match being a three-way. Will Balalaika have an advantage because Winry and Spoor canceled each other out last round, or will Winry have an advantage because Balalaika and Spoor will cancel each other out for being such similar characters? Group A Final Maes Hughes, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Lt. Yamamoto The Irresponsible Captain Tylor Group B Final Balalaika, Black Lagoon vs. Winry Rockbell, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Letopanyu Spoor, Crest/Banner of the Stars franchise Last edited by Key on Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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For a moment there I thought Akio had pulled off the impossible. Turns out I missed two votes which were both for Ami. It was my subconscious, my subconscious I say.
Group A Final: Look, I may have a soft spot towards Hughes (and if I do, I'm almost certainly not alone), but I genuinely do believe he is a great contender. (Although, I would say that if I had a soft spot for him, wouldn't I?) Perhaps Nabuca should have won last time, perhaps not. But there's no denying that Hughes is a strong candidate, a character that probably jumped into many people's minds when the theme of this tournament was mooted. And then there's Lieutenant Yamamoto. I personally do not know much about him, except that he appears to be just like Tylor. So, what does he bring to the table? The woman officer said, "What would Tylor do?" rather than asking him to solve the problem in his own way. Maybe I'm being too harsh - I don't think I am - but I expect a great supporting character to offer something unique, not to be just a "copy" of the main character. (I used quotation marks to indicate an approximation; don't take it literally.) Hughes, because he lacks a major flaw. Group B Final: I voted for Winry last round because I think she's much better than Spoor. And now she's against Balalaika, who is just a better Spoor. Winry supports the two main characters of her shows both mechanically and - more importantly - emotionally. She berates them when they mope and keeps them on their feet when they need a steadying hand. She offers a fresh (read: female) perspective in the show (Riza and others females simply do not have the screentime, especially in the first season). She even does comic relief and touches of very mild fanservice. She is far more rounded than Balalaika and Spoor, who provide/steal some good scenes but do not have her depth. Winry, because she has substance beyond being cool. |
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