Forum - View topicRE: L.A. Times piece
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GATSU
Posts: 15346 |
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"His name may be unfamiliar to American audiences, but to American animators,"
Why are they still saying that after the positive home video sales of Totoro, Kiki, and Princess Mononoke? (Not to mention the sell-out crowds for Laputa and Spirited Away.) "Until now, animated Japanese features have been box office duds here," Except for the first Pokemon movie. "Although Americans spend more than half a billion dollars on animé (Japanese animation) on video and DVD annually, Japanese features have failed to attract large audiences to U.S. theaters." Define large. If you're saying the same amount of people as Titanic, then of course not. "Despite considerable press attention, "Metropolis," based on a manga (graphic novel) by Osamu Tezuka, earned a mere $253,000 in a limited U.S. release earlier this year." They forgot to mention it exceeded Sony's expectations so much that the dvd release date got pushed back. "Miyazaki's "Princess Mononoke," which earned a then-record-breaking $154 million in Japan, made only $2.4 million when Miramax released it theatrically in the U.S. in 1999." Due to lack of advertising. "But Disney felt "Spirited Away" should be released with American voices rather than subtitles." Let's just hope they don't feel that way about the R1 dvd again. (Yes the region 2 just came out, but what if Disney uses the excuse that they have to correct the red tint and put out a dub-only r1?) "When you watch a subtitled movie, you're really focused on following the dialogue," says Pam Coats, an executive with Walt Disney Feature Animation. "If your eyes are fixed on the bottom of the screen, you're going to miss visual elements that are unique and wonderful."" Typical Disney PR-speak for, "We think Americans are too ignorant to read, and only see movies for eye candy." "'Those are shrines; people think spirits live in them.' So we set things up to make sure they're clear to American audiences."' Now you're just insulting Americans' common sense. I think most of us know what a f*cking shrine is! |
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Case
Posts: 1016 |
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Why don't you send these comments to the author of the article, rather than us?
I think most of us here already know or already have opinions of most of the criticisms you made, and all ranting about it here really amounts to is a lot of purposeless belly-aching that many of us really don't need or want to hear. 
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Slim Shinji
Past ANN Contributor
 Posts: 263 |
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Because despite postive home video sales, 9 out of 10 Americans still have never heard of Hayao Miyazaki.
The Iron Giant grossed $25 million at the box office...more than 10 times Mononoke...and was considered a financial failure.
Charles Solomon never implied it was the movie's fault.
I agree 110% with Ms. Coats...and so would any rational human being. I don't care how advanced you think your brain is....reading subtitles forces you to divide your attention between following the visual action and reading the dialouge. There are plenty of anime I prefer subtitled for one reason or another; with many television series the animation is so limited you don't miss a thing, but many films with artistic merit deserve to be WATCHED, utterly and completely. Give me a good dub over subtitles anyday.
You're not happy unless you can b!t*h about something, are you? People like you are the reason I don't like to refer to myself as an anime fan. |
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GATSU
Posts: 15346 |
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sailor: "Why don't you send these comments to the author of the article, rather than us?"
Because ANN posting articles automatically means we're allowed to comment on them? Shinji: "I don't care how advanced you think your brain is....reading subtitles forces you to divide your attention between following the visual action and reading the dialouge. " I'll admit subs can sometimes be a litte too fast. (Like with Ichi the Killer.) But in order to truly appreciate the visual, you have to experience it in its original language. (Unless the "original" language isn't as good as the dub.) "You're not happy unless you can b!t*h about something, are you? People like you are the reason I don't like to refer to myself as an anime fan." If you want to pay money for Disney to treat you like an uncultured moron, then go ahead. |
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Slim Shinji
Past ANN Contributor
Posts: 263 |
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3 words: MATTER OF OPINION. |
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GATSU
Posts: 15346 |
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If you don't believe me, watch Godzilla or a 70's kung fu film in both languages.
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Cassandra
 Posts: 1356 Location: Birdsboro, PA |
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sailor: "Why don't you send these comments to the author of the article, rather than us?" Because ANN posting articles automatically means we're allowed to comment on them? It would do more good if you told the author though. Because really, just posting it here is just making you come off in a bad light. (i.e.: "I hate everything that isn't in raw Japanese form!! All you people suck too!!") Shinji: "I don't care how advanced you think your brain is....reading subtitles forces you to divide your attention between following the visual action and reading the dialouge. " I'll admit subs can sometimes be a litte too fast. (Like with Ichi the Killer.) But in order to truly appreciate the visual, you have to experience it in its original language. (Unless the "original" language isn't as good as the dub.) Not really. I have a very difficult time watching the visuals and reading the subtitles at the same time. (I'll note that I saw Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon in the theater and spent most of the time watching the action so I had no clue what they were talking about....until I got the DVD and read the dialog.) Appreciating the visual and hearing something in your native language are two different things. "You're not happy unless you can b!t*h about something, are you? People like you are the reason I don't like to refer to myself as an anime fan." If you want to pay money for Disney to treat you like an uncultured moron, then go ahead. Maybe if you said something positive once in awhile, Gatsu, people won't think all you do is complain. And to be honest, I don't think Disney is treating anyone like an uncultured moron. I saw Mononoke in a theater under very harsh conditions. (The theater was PACKED...I mean, people were sitting in the aisles...and I was in the very front row.) But I still loved it...and it was *gasp* dubbed. Just like I love Kiki...*gasp* again, dubbed. I'm not seeing how Disney is treating anyone like a moron. |
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Case
Posts: 1016 |
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Definitely. Consider the fact that the Japanese don't watch anime in another language and subtitled. If they did for some reason, anime would probably be a niche market there too. Getting an appreciation for the original language is one thing, but it could easily be argued that the only way to fully appreciate anime (or any sort of foreign film) is to have it dubbed into your own language. I'll leave my replies at that, since all these kinds of threads ever seem to do is degrade into mindless nitpicking...
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GATSU
Posts: 15346 |
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Cassandra: "Because really, just posting it here is just making you come off in a bad light. (i.e.: "I hate everything that isn't in raw Japanese form!! All you people suck too!!")"
Note. I didn't say I hate everything in raw Japanese or insult anyone. I said that I disagreed with Disney's reasoning of why dubs are better than subs. "Americans are too illiterate to read, and all that matters is making the visual look appealing." "Not really. I have a very difficult time watching the visuals and reading the subtitles at the same time. (I'll note that I saw Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon in the theater and spent most of the time watching the action so I had no clue what they were talking about....until I got the DVD and read the dialog.)" Well ok. I'll look at it from your point of view. Would you like the sounds they make(such as grunts)when they're fighting to be dubbed? Because that's what they used to do to older kung fu films. "Maybe if you said something positive once in awhile, Gatsu, people won't think all you do is complain." Like I'm the only anime fan who complains. Like the old saying goes, "Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." "And to be honest, I don't think Disney is treating anyone like an uncultured moron." Guess you haven't read what they've been doing to their HK films. :) "I'm not seeing how Disney is treating anyone like a moron." How about changing certain cultural references in Princess Mononoke for American audiences? ("Donkey piss" anyone?) How about changing the music in the dub of Kiki and adding music to the Laputa dub? sailormech: "Consider the fact that the Japanese don't watch anime in another language and subtitled." Actually, the R2 Cagliostro has the Streamline dub, and the R2 Porco Rosso has the French dub. (Which Miyazaki prefers, but I have yet to hear.) Unless you refer to anime as in our American productions such as the Simpsons and the Powerpuff girls, where they're dubbed in Japanese. And while that is true, they also see some of our content(such as Star Wars and Eraserhead) with subs;and they even occasionally include English dubs in their anime(such as Blood, and one of the KOR oavs); so it's not like they can't appreciate something in its original language, because they're too "bored" to read or understand another culture. (But the fact that we accept this generality only allows Hollywood studios to further homogenize the art of the world.) |
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Cassandra
Posts: 1356 Location: Birdsboro, PA |
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Note. I didn't say I hate everything in raw Japanese or insult anyone. I said that I disagreed with Disney's reasoning of why dubs are better than subs. "Americans are too illiterate to read, and all that matters is making the visual look appealing." That was an example. I'm saying that I have YET to see you say anything positive about ANYTHING. Well ok. I'll look at it from your point of view. Would you like the sounds they make(such as grunts)when they're fighting to be dubbed? Because that's what they used to do to older kung fu films. It depends what track the grunts are on. If they are on the vocal track, they would have to be dubbed. If they are on an underlying separate track, there wouldn't be a need to dub those. Like I'm the only anime fan who complains. Like the old saying goes, "Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." I didn't say you were the only fan who complains. I said ALL YOU DO is complain. Again, I have yet to see you say anything positive about anything. And I really don't complain...so I don't live in that glass house so I can throw stones at you all I want 
Guess you haven't read what they've been doing to their HK films. 
What does that have to do with Spirited Away? The article was about Spirited Away.....not "the evil Disney empire that wants to kill everything foreign" How about changing certain cultural references in Princess Mononoke for American audiences? ("Donkey piss" anyone?) How about changing the music in the dub of Kiki and adding music to the Laputa dub? Disney isn't the ONLY company that changes the anime music. You just hate Disney so you're going to nitpick everything they do. |
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Craeyst Raygal
 Posts: 1383 Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT. |
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Call me an optimist, but I generally thought that Disney's involvement in Spirited Away was a goodthing for anime in general.
It's very simple, anime in America is a niche. Deal with it if you don't like it, revel in it if you do, but it's a niche market. As dedicated as they are, companies like ADV, Bandai, Manga Entertainment, Tokyopop, and Pioneer want to make their products appealing to the widest range of people to generate revenue. Let's face it, while many hardcore fans would be frothing at the mouth for the whole of Violinist of Hamelin re-mastered and subtitled on DVD, how many people would it take to buy the box set before a distributor broke even? I'd think it would be a number quite larger than the number of hardcore fans. Thus, the distributors need shows like DBZ, Tenchi, and Gundam to break the niche into the mainstream so that more people are curious and want to try more. But, even still, this limits people to knowing that what's out there is chicks, fighting, and robots. (Not that this is a bad thing, I like all three) Now, let's say that a media-friendly company like Disney picks up some of the slack. They're sitting in their corner, telling the Hollywood public (that'll sooner listen to them than the guys from Media Blasters or U.S Manga Corps) that there's these great animated films that come from Japan with heartfelt stories and beautiful artwork and that they're really worth people watching. Guess what, then you've got the L.A Times and Variety talking about anime. And mainstream America goes down to the theater to take a look at what all the fuss is about. (IF) They like what they see, they want more and will go to the companies that have it. And these companies, now blessed with a larger source of revenue can release fan favorites and obscure titles because they won't be risking tomorrow's lunch money on it. Yes, Disney's motives on dubbing Spirited Away might be questionable or even a little condescending to otaku such as we, but will Mom and Pop America stay away from the theaters because of it? |
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GATSU
Posts: 15346 |
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Cassandra: "Disney isn't the ONLY company that changes the anime music. You just hate Disney so you're going to nitpick everything they do."
No, I just hate Disney, cus it's run by monopolistic, politically correct b*st*rds that produce movies which are either really stupid or condescendingly high-brow. Craeyst: "Guess what, then you've got the L.A Times and Variety talking about anime. And mainstream America goes down to the theater to take a look at what all the fuss is about. (IF) They like what they see, they want more and will go to the companies that have it." See, the problem is you're speaking in theory. Disney has given little to no advertising to Ghibli films in the past, and magazine articles on them won't mean anything if the audience members don't know where the movie is playing. Maybe this will change with Spirited Away, but they're pretty late in announcing locations. |
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Judau
 Posts: 247 Location: Boston, MA |
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Ok, I think that perhaps everybody should just step back and look at this stream. I personally believe that anime fans should be on the same side (generally, as we are one whole fan base that may understand eachother better than annyone else). I understand opinions and that everybody has their own, but this is rediculous. Anime in the mainstream (which I would include anything by Disney, even though they do not sell particularly well) will, at least for a while, not be to many anime fan's expectations. This is to be expected. JUst think of it this way- when the mainstream becomes as good as we may want it to be, everything will be better in the world, right? With some of the last releases being as good as they are, I predict that the mainstream is heading in the right direction. I just worry about many fans believing that it will never happen, therefore being angry at every release not released by Pioneer, ADV, Manga, Bandai, etc. I don;t even want to start with the sub/dub issue, as every anime fan already has their own strict opinion about it, which is why bilingual DVDs are so good. They apply to all anime fans, not just half. Although, I do have to add, in general, I believe dubbs are getting better, which is the only good direction to go. Jabbering about these issues will get us nowhere.
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Cassandra
Posts: 1356 Location: Birdsboro, PA |
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No, I just hate Disney, cus it's run by monopolistic, politically correct b*st*rds that produce movies which are either really stupid or condescendingly high-brow.
See? So no matter how Disney handles this, you won't be happy. And I've seen a few good Disney movies....but you probably didn't like them because they had Disney's name on it. See, the problem is you're speaking in theory. Disney has given little to no advertising to Ghibli films in the past, and magazine articles on them won't mean anything if the audience members don't know where the movie is playing. Maybe this will change with Spirited Away, but they're pretty late in announcing locations. They announced the cities, just not which particular theaters it'll be in. (On Sept 20, it goes to these cities: Boston Chicago Los Angeles Minneapolis New York Philadelphia San Francisco Seattle Toronto Washington D.C. October 4 add: Atlanta Dallas Denver Detroit Houston Montreal Phoenix San Diego Vancouver) |
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Jlbkwrm
Old Regular
Posts: 94 |
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While a nice idea, the "Can't we all just get along?" idea doesn't hold up in practice. The larger the fanbase comes, the more divided it will grow. Given that anime companies (and even, occasionally, Disney) are responding more actively to fan requests widens the rift. In order for all of fandom to present a united front, there would have to be respect coming from all sides. It will never happen. Fandom is so large, with so many different opinions, that it's completely impossible. You're going to have extremists at both ends, who'll have to share the same end product (which is where bilingual DVDs have problems). Somebody's going to be unhappy. And so the infighting begins. How that applies to this thread: This is the same extremist opinion (with the exact. same. argument.) that has been popping up repeatedly. There is about zero chance for a totally united front on this, unless Disney suddenly decides to cut Sen down to one frame dubbed by tormented howler monkeys (in which case most would be willing to concede that they are evil). I think the best we can hope for is a temporary uneasy truce. |
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