Forum - View topicNEWS: Media Factory makes request to stop fansubbing
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neko_noir
Posts: 1 |
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Man, I remember the good old days...when fan-subbing wasn’t an underground thing. Fansubbers used to request permission to translate anime into English subtitles in order for the companies to build a fan base in the U.S. I mean when you really think about it, that’s how the huge anime boom started. As soon as fansubbers got a taste of what was to come - they ran with it and really blew the whole operation out of the water Rather than working with the companies - they worked around them and used the vast distance as their shields. Stealing streams from Japanese television rather than getting S-VHS quality stuff from the companies themselves.
The fact that it was in S-VHS gives you an idea of how long ago it was. After receiving the tapes, distributors were allowed to charge only production costs for the copies they actually made. Tapes would be filled with the anime you chose from, a list usually with no previews whatsoever and only costs an average of $4-14 after shipping, depending on the distributor. A good system, but as with everything else, greed has a wondrous way of screwing things up. Prices hiked and distributors were shut down. Bringing us to where we are today. With the middleman and the primary source out of the way there is only anarchy. |
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Sword of Whedon
Posts: 683 |
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I'm afraid you're looking at revisionist history
No, that was the stated intention, but permission was virtually never requested nor given. A few times things were done for specific events, and ONLY shown there like the butchered dub of Farewell Space Battleship Yamato that Voyager later released commercially.
Again, no. People would sub off taped-off-Japanese-TV and off of Laserdiscs.
Again, no. You're talking about the fansubber ethic, this was in no way endorsed or approved by the Japanese companies.
Now this is true. Before a fansub group could control the number of copies generated simply by the realities of tape generations. You pull the master from distribution and there's only so many watchable copies that can now be generated. Now with perfect digital reproduction, the control rod has been removed. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Mr. Starfall knight me old son. I re-read what I had posted there and can't for the life of me see where I stated that I "hated teenagers". So I'm a bit confused why your getting all "hissy" about it. All I meant was "all good things to those who wait" Having been a teenager myself I can remember being anxious to do all I could and wanting it all now. But as I have pointed out I only stayed a teenager for 7 years and now have a monthly income to be able to afford any anime title I like enough to want to part with my hard earned cash for. If School Rumble, which by the way I didn't even know existed before it was mentioned here, is as great as you say I'm sure it will be picked up and be available to all and sunry via the usual legal shops that now stock the past and current "great" titles that were only available by fansubs. So by the time you are earning an income of your own, (and you should if you do well in school ) you can line your shelves with them. But to state that you DL fansubs because you "can't afford them now" "perfer them anyway", and "find them convienent" is selfish and lame because your not taking into consideration the people who worked hard day and night to make School Rumble in the first place.
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The Starfall Knight
 Posts: 130 Location: Within the hearts of the people |
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I have neither the energy nor the patience to go back to whatever Mohawk said so I'll just say that he's right and get back to matters that are actually worth the trouble. What's really lame is you arguing with a stupid teenager. Especially one who's stubborn and never admits when he's wrong. Boo-yah!
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cyrax777
 Posts: 1825 Location: the desert |
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for the record like it matters the new school rumble ep just came out.
just a statement of what good did it do. Fansubs has become the new warez scene and this proves my point one group goes down either voluntary or legal and more pop up continue were the other left off. I just wish they would crack down on the DVD rip groups atleast im sure we can all agree there a bigger illegal op on the ethics and morals scale. because in that case you could get a local version of said file. |
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Anji
Posts: 24 |
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Yea, in the old days, fansubbers never requested permission from Japanese distributors. The only time that permission was asked was that the anime conventions would sometimes ask permission to show fansubs during their shows.
The conversion to digital changed fansubbing entirely. It was like the invention of the assembly line to manufacturing. Before you needed people to translate, time, etc, which you still need now, however that has gotten easier with digital. However, in the old days, you also needed people to go out and make the VHS or S-VHS tapes. It would take eons and a lot of manpower to make the tapes. Now, however, it just take a few minutes to download off internet depending on your bandwidth. One thing that is much better now is that the money has been taken out of fansubbing completely. Now, fansubbers make no money and do it purely out of enjoyment. As the previous poster said, in the old days, fansubbers would charge btw $4-14 for a VHS tape, which would hold something from 3-4 episodes a tape. Fansubbers or distributors would state that they costs were due to wear and tear on their VHS machines as well as for the tapes themselves, but there was always a question whether some distributors were trying to make a profit. There were a few times when I remember sending money, and the distributor just ran away w/ it. Now you can get your copy instantly without all those hassles. And of course, there was that old generational issue mentioned. A 3rd generation fansub would have you squinting afterwards. Even the first generation digisubs were terrible quality until the fansubbers managed to improve the ripping process. There's still this big argument whether fansubbing is ethical or even moral even for unlicensed anime. This is all based on some obscure international law based on the Berne convention (animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/lexicon.php?id=63) which I've never heard has prosecuted a single person in the US. Again, please remember that I am not speaking of licensed anime, so this does not fall in the same category as pirating movies, music, or software. Right now, fansubbing anime has gotten the most attention here. However, people fansub other things too, most noticeably Japanese TV shows and even some Korean TV shows too. By the same token, this would always be illegal and immoral even though there isn't anyone who has plans to bring these to the US. I just don't buy most of the arguments and technicalities by people who seem to be displaying a holier than thou attitude. Of course, I am be easily be accused of being an arrogant pirate, and if it is, that's what it is. However, if the series is licensed, I agree, don't fansub it. Otherwise, I would say it's fair game. If someone like Media Factory makes a request, then fansubbers are at their own discretion, but they should not be tarred and feathered if they continue to fansub. |
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Sword of Whedon
Posts: 683 |
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The Berne Convention is not a law, more like a set of rules to play the game by. It gives peopel the ability to enforce their intellectual property rights by. Oh, and I personally know some people who have been prosecuted by Japanese studios for selling fansubs of their titles for profit. Believe me, they have enforced it. |
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Godaistudios
Posts: 2075 Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment) |
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Well, for clarification, it's really a treaty. But even so, that treaty gives a basis for laws to be created in each country on what infractions to prosecute upon should a citizen be brought up on charges of breaching that treaty. It's still as effective as a set of laws. |
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Anji
Posts: 24 |
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Well, the key there is that you stated that people have been prosecuted when they have sold fansubs "for profit." I was more referring to giving it away for free, which essentially all fansubbers do right now. And again, you stated that the Berne convention isn't really a law, but a set of rules. So how would a company from Japan go about suing a fansubber or leecher in the US, or even an ISP, filesharer, etc? Pls remember this is for the case where the anime is unlicensed? Again, software, US movies, music, etc are illegal. People and servers are being sued and taken down at this minute. However, would something like fansubbing and distributing unlicensed anime really hold up in a court of law in the US even if the fansubs were distributed in SCALE as people have mentioned, but where no one makes any profit? Can't it be argued that this is similar to going to the Louvre, taking a picture of the Mona Lisa with a high quality digital camera, and posting that picture on your internet site where it can be viewed and downloaded by thousands of people? You are not charging people to do this, but the Louvre may be losing money on posters.
The other argument is, and this may be a reach, is free speech. Let's say you live in China, the Chinese government has banned movies and other things such as Lebron James Nike commercials which it deems unsuitable for its citizens. Said citizen wants to view it anyway and downloads it from the internet and shows it to all his friends, which just so happen to be a billion Chinese. Nike sues citizen for violating copyright laws, caring not for the greater exposure of product. Ok, the US doesn't ban such things. Say you think the US media is portraying a far too bright picture of the Iraq war. You record something from an Al Jezzera (sp?), and "fansub" it, so that people can understand it. You distribute it to your group of Americans for a Balanced Media. You charge nothing, but thousands get copies. Would this still be illegal in a court of law? The other thing that gets me in some of these posts is moral and legal and how these things go hand-in-hand. Moral to me is a very strong term while legal is something that is mutable over time. Saying that something is illegal or even illegal in the spirit of the law does not always mean that it is immoral. And the same is true vice versa. There was a time when slavery was legal, and blacks and whites using the same restroom was illegal. Saying that morality is tied to either of these things just because of the legal reasons is a far reach. Currently, drinking alcohol is legal even though there was a time when it was not. Some people still consider drinking immoral. Tying the word immoral to fansubbing is crossing a line, legal or not. Unethical and illegal are choice and possible words, but immoral, I don't think so. |
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Anji
Posts: 24 |
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Some other thoughts on the illegality of fansubs...
Are fansubs still illegal if there is no demonstrable material loss? For example, that Dear John letter from Animenation has already been mentioned where it states that anime that is fansubbed seems to have greater sales than those which are not. However, another poster mentioned that fansubs do not drive sales. However, Cartoon Network does. Whenever a show such as Cowboy Bebop is shown again and again on Cartoon Network, each time, that drives sales for the DVDs. However, what is anime shown on Cartoon Network? That is FREE anime that is shown to viewers. Frankly, the amount of people that download fansubs isn't that many. Probably even for the most popular shows such as Naruto, 10K is pushing the limits, and they are mostly relatively tech-savvy otaku. (yes, even 12-yr olds can be tech savvy.) Cartoon Network has a much greater influence in driving sales because it can reach a much greater audience of casual fans. However, the key here is that people are much more likely to buy a DVD after they have seen it and determined that they like it. They are not likely to just randomly pick a DVD from Best Buy that they have never seen before. They are more likely to buy if they also have a recommendation from a friend or a good review from an anime site, but still the best driving force is having seen the anime previously, whether from Cartoon Network or a fansub. The other point I would like to make are the continuing conflicting views from industry on fansubs, so I wonder whether fansubs have acquired any "squatters rights" yet. For example, fansubs have been around a long time. Industry cannot claim that they have not known about the sudden phenomenon of fansubs. However, they have very half-heartedly gone after any fansubbers. Music, software, and movies pretty much went after their rippers quickly. For example, even in this month's NewType USA, which is produced by ADV, many of the fan arts are from anime that has not yet come to the US yet. And don't tell me that girl who drew that picture from Bakuretsu Tenshi (Burst Angel) got it from a Japanese DVD she bought. I doubt that the NewType staff would be so naive as to not realize how people are watching these shows. In addition, some anime columns give reviews of anime that is currently showing in Japan. I seriously doubt that all of these columnists live in Japan or even buy DVDs from there (although of course, some of them do). Even if they watch rips that aren't fansubbed, that's technically illegal also. |
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Godaistudios
Posts: 2075 Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment) |
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Sword of Whedon
Posts: 683 |
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You said no one has ever been busted, I told you you were wrong. The Berne Convention essentially says that everyone's copyrights apply to all signatory nations, which include the US and Japan, and virtually all the nations on Earth. In other words, they can sue people here.
By filing suit in a US court. It doesn't matter if it's unlicensed or not.
The RIAA has successfully sued people for sharing a few hundred songs. Now we're talking about enabling multiple violations with a weekly distribution in the hundreds of thousands EACH?
See, the Louvre doesn't "own" the Mona Lisa. It belongs to everyone, and they are in charge of its care and preservation. The big reason they forbid picture taking is because the light will further the deterioration of the painting, not because they're worried about their poster sales.
There used to be a ton of Japanese video stores in the North Jersey area that carried the latest shows taped off Japanese TV. You know who sued them? The COMMERCIAL owners.
Yup |
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Anji
Posts: 24 |
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Do you have any internet links that go to the news articles where people were sued because of the Berne convention? I'm specificially referring to those Japanese stores in North Jersey that were taping those Japanese TV shows. If they were sued successfully, you are correct, and this is a good example.
Again, the RIAA and music sharing suit is different, and does not pertain to this issue. Those are American users who are sharing US songs that are obviously licensed in the US. This issue is referring to international law and how it is implemented, specifically to a product that is not available in the host country. The Louvre does own the rights to the Mona Lisa. It would be similar to a Japanese company licensing its anime series to a US distributor. You cannot profit commercially off selling reproductions of the Mona Lisa, regardless of the care and preservation issues. However, again the argument here is that no one is "profitting." |
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ShellBullet
 Posts: 1051 Location: I hit things, with my fist. |
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No, no one owns the image of the "Mona Lisa." The actual painting, sure it's owned by the museum, but no one can lay claim to the image. That is why anyone who wants to make a poster featuring the "Mona Lisa" or "The Last Supper" or any such work is perfectly free to do so. Furthermore, they are perfectly free to make as much profit as they can from said poster. All such masterpieces have passed into the public domain ages ago. A century from now all the anime out today will have become public property as well. This is just the legal differance between a new and an old work of art. |
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Sword of Whedon
Posts: 683 |
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The Berne convention allows them to sue in the United States without having to go through the trademark process here. That's the point. They aren't sued BECAUSE of the Berne Convention, they sue because it ENABLES them to. There are no specific links, this happened way back in like 96-97, when they had to drop a whole bunch of the shows they carried. The hilarious thing is that they promised that TV Japan on Dish Network would provide the same thing(the raid was specifically to kill those stores and get people paying for it). Well, we all know how well that went. At the time they were promising "tons of anime, music and variety programs", at least that's what the rep at Yaohan (Now Mitsuwa) plaza said. In reality, it has a music video show, a few drama programs, and then cooking and news and that's about it. Check out their lineup- http://www.tvjapan.net/eng/programming.html Someone on here was around at the time, and can corroberate the story.
And as we keep telling you, they don't have to be. You're confusing the fansub ethic with international law. It doesn't matter if a product is available or not, you're still not allowed to copy it willy-nilly. [/quote] |
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