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Dargonxtc



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:31 pm Reply with quote
PetrifiedJello wrote:
I absolutely can not fathom how in the world you can dismiss the Gil Elvgren image I posted above and not see the clear and distinct objectification of several of her body parts and call it "fine art" while calling the figure porn.


Personally I don't find the Elvgren image to be "fine" art, though I have absolutely no problem with it and I think it was made by an artist with great talent.

What I don't understand is why we are using paintings when we are talking about figures. If examples of fine art need to be given, then let them at least be figures.



Obviously comparing an anime figure to the statue of David is more than slightly ridiculous. Obviously the differnce between the two is great.

However I find the gulf between these two figures to be similarly large.


I suppose with me nudity is a matter of tastefulness. One I find tasteful the other I do not. And I am not even sure if the other one can get technically nude.

The fact that clothing can be removed, much like in the real world, is not something that will automatically make something distasteful for me.


Last edited by Dargonxtc on Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Redbeard 101
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:53 pm Reply with quote
PetrifiedJello wrote:
If you think this is why a figure like Nanael exists, then you're flat out wrong. It is art despite your belief.

You do realize it's not about figures of Nanael themselves right? It's about THIS FIGURE of Nanael. There are several others that are equally cute and well designed that do not have you take their clothes off to see their plastic PVC nipples and breasts. Littlewolf has said quite a few times it may be art but it is not fine art. And in her opinion a bit...distasteful again. As in THIS PARTICULAR figure and it's presentation. It's also funny how you come in with flame attacks and trollish comments only to bow out and agree to disagree once they've been said.
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:00 am Reply with quote
I think if an artist carved an 8 foot anime figure out of marble, I'd call it a work of fine art.
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DomFortress



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
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Location: Richmond BC, Canada
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:47 am Reply with quote
walw6pK4Alo wrote:
I think if an artist carved an 8 foot anime figure out of marble, I'd call it a work of fine art.
There's the 1/1 Gundam statue awhile back, which itself stood 18m tall.

If there are those who don't like a guy with a girlfriend, that's understandable. But for them telling stuff about having a wife who doesn't care about who they are and what they do, is a sure sign that they need marriage counseling.

But then, an anime character figurine sure doesn't care about what they'll do to it being who they are. It's just a toy after all.
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Zac
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Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:57 am Reply with quote
DomFortress wrote:


If there are those who don't like a guy with a girlfriend, that's understandable.


Oh Domfortress, never change! Promise me you'll never change!
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Sentire



Joined: 21 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:19 am Reply with quote
DomFortress wrote:
walw6pK4Alo wrote:
I think if an artist carved an 8 foot anime figure out of marble, I'd call it a work of fine art.
There's the 1/1 Gundam statue awhile back, which itself stood 18m tall.

If there are those who don't like a guy with a girlfriend, that's understandable. But for them telling stuff about having a wife who doesn't care about who they are and what they do, is a sure sign that they need marriage counseling.

But then, an anime character figurine sure doesn't care about what they'll do to it being who they are. It's just a toy after all.


Your marriage advice is priceless. Maybe you should write a book? What's even more disconcerting is the fact that you think owning such a figurine defines who someone is and "what they do", and thus making the correlation that because his wife doesn't mind the figurines, she doesn't care about him - and therefore counseling is in order. I'd love to see your credentials on handing out marriage advice.... actually, you'd probably come up with some load of crap - so forget I asked.
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zanarkand princess



Joined: 27 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:34 am Reply with quote
DomFortress wrote:
walw6pK4Alo wrote:
I think if an artist carved an 8 foot anime figure out of marble, I'd call it a work of fine art.
There's the 1/1 Gundam statue awhile back, which itself stood 18m tall.

If there are those who don't like a guy with a girlfriend, that's understandable. But for them telling stuff about having a wife who doesn't care about who they are and what they do, is a sure sign that they need marriage counseling.

But then, an anime character figurine sure doesn't care about what they'll do to it being who they are. It's just a toy after all.


You literally made me head desk with that.

Isn't it a good thing that he and his wife can respect each other others hobbies without being judgmental? Why would you think that means that A. his wife doesn't care about "Who he is or what he does" or B. That collecting figures makes him some sort of sick sexual deviant? It's a toy for Christ's sake people! A toy that happens to be obviously sexual(and yes distasteful from my point of view) and is a far cry from fine art but a toy nonetheless! I would think that the fact that his wife is able to accept that part of his Hobby (Meaning that as Sentire said it does not define him as a person, simply what he likes to do sometimes in his free time) would say that they are perfectly comfortable.
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DomFortress



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:04 am Reply with quote
zanarkand princess wrote:
DomFortress wrote:
walw6pK4Alo wrote:
I think if an artist carved an 8 foot anime figure out of marble, I'd call it a work of fine art.
There's the 1/1 Gundam statue awhile back, which itself stood 18m tall.

If there are those who don't like a guy with a girlfriend, that's understandable. But for them telling stuff about having a wife who doesn't care about who they are and what they do, is a sure sign that they need marriage counseling.

But then, an anime character figurine sure doesn't care about what they'll do to it being who they are. It's just a toy after all.


You literally made me head desk with that.

Isn't it a good thing that he and his wife can respect each other others hobbies without being judgmental? Why would you think that means that A. his wife doesn't care about "Who he is or what he does" or B. That collecting figures makes him some sort of sick sexual deviant? It's a toy for Christ's sake people! A toy that happens to be obviously sexual(and yes distasteful from my point of view) and is a far cry from fine art but a toy nonetheless! I would think that the fact that his wife is able to accept that part of his Hobby (Meaning that as Sentire said it does not define him as a person, simply what he likes to do sometimes in his free time) would say that they are perfectly comfortable.
Do you even know why we need a hobby; something that we can put our time, effort, and resources into, while being completely unproductive because we're not making a living based on what we do as a hobby? Simple, because it makes us happy when we develop a certain skill, while we're playing with our hobby. For positive emotion like happiness indicates a "win-win" situation, that means developing a skill that could yield more opportunity and resources in the future.

Perhaps you should redefine the term "hobby", before you get it mixed up with "over-consumption" or "escapism". Your desk will thank you for using your head more productively.
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zanarkand princess



Joined: 27 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:21 am Reply with quote
DomFortress wrote:
Do you even know why we need a hobby; something that we can put our time, effort, and resources into, while being completely unproductive because we're not making a living based on what we do as a hobby? Simple, because it makes us happy when we develop a certain skill, while we're playing with our hobby. For positive emotion like happiness indicates a "win-win" situation, that means developing a skill that could yield more opportunity and resources in the future.

Perhaps you should redefine the term "hobby", before you get it mixed up with "over-consumption" or "escapism". Your desk will thank you for using your head more productively.


How does that relate to what I was saying in anyway? You took what I said completely out of context and made some nonsensical point about a word I put in bold. Or did you mean that because of your irrelevant and untrue point people's hobbies do define them?
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DomFortress



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:29 am Reply with quote
zanarkand princess wrote:
DomFortress wrote:
Do you even know why we need a hobby; something that we can put our time, effort, and resources into, while being completely unproductive because we're not making a living based on what we do as a hobby? Simple, because it makes us happy when we develop a certain skill, while we're playing with our hobby. For positive emotion like happiness indicates a "win-win" situation, that means developing a skill that could yield more opportunity and resources in the future.

Perhaps you should redefine the term "hobby", before you get it mixed up with "over-consumption" or "escapism". Your desk will thank you for using your head more productively.


How does that relate to what I was saying in anyway? You took what I said completely out of context and made some nonsensical point about a word I put in bold. Or did you mean that because of your irrelevant and untrue point people's hobbies do define them?
I just take my anime hobby more seriously than most people I came to know, that's all. Now why's that making me any different that those who don't, and how, is therefore anyone's guess.
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2DOtaku



Joined: 24 Sep 2008
Posts: 122
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:27 am Reply with quote
..... so, about the statue. I won't be buying it personally, not because I don't like it, or because I don't like Nanael, or because I think it's "gross" or anything like that. It's a nice statue. I just don't buy a lot of statues, and before I buy a statue it has to meet 2 criteria: -

1. I have to like the anime/manga/game it's based on (I like Queen's Blade).
2. The character has to be my favourite, or one of my favourites in the series (my favourite is Melona).

After that, it just depends on whether or not I like the statue itself. Anyway, here's my 2 cents on the moral debate over statues (dear lord, did I really just say that?): yes, it looks sexy. Yes, it's meant to look sexy. Yes, some people will buy it so that they can drool over Nanael's little statue breasts. I don't care for the whole removable clothes idea personally (no-one says that just because you buy a statue with removable clothes, you have to take them off), but I won't fault anyone that does. As long as they keep themselves to themselves and don't try to impose their opinions onto me I'll happily stand back and let anyone enjoy whatever they're into, and for those of you who won't stop whining over how things like this sexualise women: give it a rest already. I'm not trying to say it doesn't, it most certainly does, but what's wrong with that? We're human, we're sexual, we think of ourselves and each other in a sexual context and to try to deny that is just plain arrogant. I'm guessing most if not all of you have issues with your sexuality that you need to sort out, but don't take them out on us. This statue doesn't objectify women, it objectifies an anime character. Big difference there, one I think we're blurring a wee bitty with this debate, and just being able to look at a woman and think "oh, she's hot" doesn't automatically make you into some sort of womaniser. Reality is rarely so black and white. You don't have to be completely one thing or completely the other. I'm quite happy that I can think sexy thoughts whilst maintaining that women are as much human as men. I would get into the whole 'yaoi equivalent' argument, but I'm sure you're all familiar with that one. Now it's time for someone to take offence to what I've just said and twist my words into something I didn't actually say. Confused
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PetrifiedJello



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:19 am Reply with quote
Psycho 101 wrote:
It's also funny how you come in with flame attacks and trollish comments only to bow out and agree to disagree once they've been said.

I find it extremely hypocritical you call me the flame/troll type when this is your second post which did nothing but stir up dust in a conversation to which you can not answer.

I don't need you telling me I don't understand LittleGreenWolf while adding your two cents to this discussion. While you're free to do so, at least honor me with a comment that shows you have been following along.

Since it's quite clear you haven't, let me catch you up to par.

First, she says she likes the figure. Okay, I can see that. I like it as well.

Then, she starts to challenge another's opinion about pushing this figure as fine art. Whoa, a bit much, but I can accept this. She thinks this figure blows as fine art. Got it.

Moving on, she then equates this statue as a sexual objectification of women while using Gil Elvgren as an example of what isn't sexual objectification of women done as classy art.

Stop. From this point on, I've been challenging her on the logic behind this hypocritical statement (which I believe she took as a personal attack, but that's on her).

To do so, I posted a picture of Elvgren's work as a "Okay, what part of this picture doesn't objectify this woman". The point was lost, but I expected this. Instead, I get more rhetoric about trying to separate the difference between classy art and porn while being criticized I don't read her replies.

Okay, I try again after she, once again, confuses me without answering the question. In the meantime, you interject with your two cents about trolling.

She answers again, claiming all this experience in the world of art, but at the same time, continues to relate this figure as nothing more than a sex toy.

Now here we are. So, Psycho 101, explain to me why she thinks this and absolutely refuses to see the choice an owner has to display two sets of artistic style. Explain to me why she thinks this is a toy made simply to objectify the sexuality of women.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Removing a plastic piece is the answer that separates art from porn.

If that's her opinion, fine. Nothing I can do about it. I'm just here to offer my two cents on the other side of what I see as an incorrect opinion.

It happens. This is the interwebs in which text communication is the most miscomprehended form ever. I seem to be guilty of this (although have yet to see it), which is why I felt I should bow out.

Now you turn around and kick up dust with your hypocritical reply about trolling and flaming.

Can I bow out now or do you insist to keep this conversation going to which there will be no resolution given the comment history?
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littlegreenwolf



Joined: 10 Aug 2002
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:55 am Reply with quote
Geeze, really PetrifiedJello? I thought you said you were stopping, but now you're attacking again, this time indirectly.

Just stop, please. Again, Gil Elvgren does "sexy" women, I agree, but I'll say it again he doesn't focus on a single body part, just as as Botticelli or Titian didn't focus on a single body part in their paintings, making the artistic intent questionable, and up to your interpretation.

That Nanael statue's intent is not questionable, and it's all designed to bring focus on the breast. If Gil Elvgren had arrows pointing at the breast in his pictures, then yeah, he'd be guilty of it too, but he doesn't.

I gave reasons as to what is fine art and what isn't, and it's the academic reasons they give you when you study Fine Art as a major, as I have done. You haven't given me any good reason as to why I should consider this figure as fine art, or proved that it meets the standards listed. Instead you go on about how art is opinion, which is is and I've already stated this, but fine art is different because it has to meet certain standards first on a critical level. And I've stated several times now porn can be art, so back off and quit twisting my words as you claim I have to you.

You are hopeless, not listening with an open mind, and just not reading my answers to your questions. And then you end your posts trying to get someone else to not post anymore. I'm sick of trying to reword everything into sentences you can comprehend, and seeing other people try to spell it out for you too. If anyone else wants me to to further explain my views I'll answer, but you are a hopeless case out to argue and not discuss. You have been attacking me with questioned designed to cause argument, such as that stupid PVC figure picture, telling me straight out before I gave an answer that my opinion would be wrong, and again, you've turned this into an argument when before we were discussing. Now your little rehash of our "discussion" is just insulting.

Please, do bow out already like you keep saying you will so that I may keep what little respect I may have left for you and your opinion.


Last edited by littlegreenwolf on Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:12 am; edited 2 times in total
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2DOtaku



Joined: 24 Sep 2008
Posts: 122
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:03 am Reply with quote
littlegreenwolf wrote:
That Nanael statue's intent is not questionable, and it's all designed to bring focus on the breast.

Actually, I have to disagree; you can see her panties too.
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DomFortress



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
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Location: Richmond BC, Canada
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:15 am Reply with quote
2DOtaku wrote:
..... so, about the statue. I won't be buying it personally, not because I don't like it, or because I don't like Nanael, or because I think it's "gross" or anything like that. It's a nice statue. I just don't buy a lot of statues, and before I buy a statue it has to meet 2 criteria: -

1. I have to like the anime/manga/game it's based on (I like Queen's Blade).
2. The character has to be my favourite, or one of my favourites in the series (my favourite is Melona).

After that, it just depends on whether or not I like the statue itself. Anyway, here's my 2 cents on the moral debate over statues (dear lord, did I really just say that?): yes, it looks sexy. Yes, it's meant to look sexy. Yes, some people will buy it so that they can drool over Nanael's little statue breasts. I don't care for the whole removable clothes idea personally (no-one says that just because you buy a statue with removable clothes, you have to take them off), but I won't fault anyone that does. As long as they keep themselves to themselves and don't try to impose their opinions onto me I'll happily stand back and let anyone enjoy whatever they're into, and for those of you who won't stop whining over how things like this sexualise women: give it a rest already. I'm not trying to say it doesn't, it most certainly does, but what's wrong with that? We're human, we're sexual, we think of ourselves and each other in a sexual context and to try to deny that is just plain arrogant. I'm guessing most if not all of you have issues with your sexuality that you need to sort out, but don't take them out on us. This statue doesn't objectify women, it objectifies an anime character. Big difference there, one I think we're blurring a wee bitty with this debate, and just being able to look at a woman and think "oh, she's hot" doesn't automatically make you into some sort of womaniser. Reality is rarely so black and white. You don't have to be completely one thing or completely the other. I'm quite happy that I can think sexy thoughts whilst maintaining that women are as much human as men. I would get into the whole 'yaoi equivalent' argument, but I'm sure you're all familiar with that one. Now it's time for someone to take offence to what I've just said and twist my words into something I didn't actually say. Confused
Just for that, you're gonna get questioned about the totality of your idea behind your words. And that's not me putting words in your mouth but rather, I'm exposing your logic using critical literacy by relating what you've said to the bigger picture.

You won't judge anyone just so you can appeal to everyone, so why should we even listen to you when you're just this big neutral face, pretending that you're speaking as some society's norm and not of yourself?

On top of that, you claimed that everyone else should just keep their ideas to themselves thereby not imposing with yours. Yet here you are, voicing your opinion on a public forum to insist all of us to do likewise, when what you're doing by voicing your opinion in a public place, is directly opposite to what you think everyone should do?

And now you pretend to ask what's wrong with sexually objectifying women, when you claimed that it's OK for you to do so because you're speaking as if you're one of the society's norms. When sexually objectify women in general is considered as one of the many shallowness and vanity, that's being allowed by our society because this simple idea that "sex sells" and nothing more. Furthermore, if what you said is true that humans are sexual creatures, then that should only lead us into having more sex with the members of the opposite sex. So why should anyone of us try to obtain substitutes as a form of distraction, that ultimately prevents us from our universal cause; having sex with one another?

That anime related character figurine toy is modeled after a fictional female character, who is itself modeled after the idea of a real woman with sexy curves and with sexual features. That just made "real woman with sexy curves and with sexual features" as image label for the Japanese toy manufacturers to make toys based on that image, because "sex sells". So what's not stopping people to think that "real woman with sexy curves and with sexual features" are "profitable" thereby marketable, when it should be beautiful and therefore appreciated instead?

Oh, wait. You don't care. How terribly careless of me not to consider that. I'm sorry. Embarassed
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