Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! - manga.exe
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agila61
 Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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That's an advantage of anime, since its possible to do two subs, one with honorifics and one without, as with the Nozomi release of Maria-sama ga Miteru. |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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The advantage of manga, however, is that you have a little glossary at the beginning of each book that explains the honourifics to someone who doesn't know them. I think that this is a necessity for any manga that leaves the honourifics in. Even for people who are more familiar with Japanese culture, they are definitely useful (I will always remember being impressed the first time I saw one that also included the meaning of not using an honourific, which I'm pretty sure was at the beginning of W Juliet).
Also, to go back a bit, I must admit that "nakama" is not a word I actually knew so thanks for the interesting discussion about it, I'll be listening for it on my anime in the future 
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I think two largely similar but slightly different sub tracks would be a good idea. The second track (whether it be the more natural English track or the one with the honorifics) would basically be a considered an on-disc extra. Having both would cater to fans old and new.
Dude, I can hear you perfectly fine, no need to shout. I genuinely did not know it was a troll sub. I'm certainly not surprised, but I didn't actually know. Calling me a moron for not knowing is grossly unfair. How would I have known? The group is a giveaway - gg are famous for troll subs. But how would I have known whom the group was, hmm? I've seen the picture scattered across the net and on Google Image Search, but nothing I read ever said who the group was, so I couldn't make the connection. Besides, I've read subtitles so bad that they were on the level of machine translations, or worse, so a group being overly literal is quite plausible in comparison. At any rate, It matters not that it was a troll sub. The picture served its purpose, which was to point out an undesirable level of Japanese in translations. ---------- As an aside, just today I defended your use of expletives as being on the decline. I see that I was wrong and that you still have it in you to be a complete swear-abusing jerk when you want to be. I'm disappointed. |
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RDespair
 Posts: 244 Location: California |
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You can convey the level of familiarity between two individuals just fine without using honorifics through the use of syntax, word choice, tone, situation, and the like. Honorifics aren't necessary.
If Japanese terms are essential to the plot like karuta is in Chihayafuru, then go ahead and leave them in but otherwise an English localization should be in English and not in Engrish. And if someone really cares about the honorifics, well, they're probably watching the sub anyway and they'll hear them. |
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Haterater
 Posts: 1727 |
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It could be a variety of reasons, such as story lines, actors, graphics, etc. Like listening to a variety of music, some like the flow of the song, but don't want to necessary want to learn the language of said song. |
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configspace
Posts: 3717 |
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I've seen several times already in official subs like Aniplex (usually things outside of Crunchyroll translations) where they are caught in a bind because they routinely drop honorifics in Japanese settings, yet have to translate a change in honorific usage that the scene depends on and the English comes out very strange. They need something to note the change on screen, but they can't use the very terms that would exactly convey that change, and yet at the same time, no one ever speaks like that in English.
Furthermore, the rationale for dropping it because it's heard is grating. It is just as bad as hearing the last name spoken but reading the first names in the subs. Samuelp put it best: it causes cognitive dissonance. This applies not only to Japanese but to every in-universe setting and language like senor, senora, senorita, muchacho, muchacha, vato, etc as well. Like I mentioned, the power of English--heck, much of the language itself--comes exactly how it can incorporate other foreign or new words. It's possible to express some idea of a foreign or new (made up) word as a phrase or string of words, but that would be pretty ridiculous not to mention completely unnatural sounding. We didn't have a word equivalent to the German "schadenfreude", so we import it, just like that. (I mentioned previously, other examples from "grok" to "hentai") Likewise, we have no equivalent for routine use of the variety of honorifics in Anglo-Saxon culture, so we should also import that, to convey respect for social status and whatever yobisute faux-pas a scene might require. I mention "routine use" because we are status-neutral for regular communication with whom we are familiar with and speaking English outside of that status-neutral mode sounds extremely odd. But this is not the case at all in Japanese. I refer to my boss on a first name basis. I refer to my boss's boss on a first name basis. I also refer to the guy 3 levels up on a first name basis in a professional setting. This is a big no-no in Japan. Yet you aren't going to convey the same meaning of social status by routinely referring to them as "Mr. LastName". As a customer greeting, or someone who's unfamiliar, yes. In english, in a working environment, this would be offensive to address my boss by Mr. LastName or even LastName. Yet again, this is the opposite of how it is in Japan, hence the conveyance of what you think is superficially equivalent is not equivalent at all! |
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RyanSaotome
 Posts: 4210 Location: Towson, Maryland |
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So basically what it comes down to is that some people want their foreign media to NOT be foreign media. They want it as Americanized as possible to completely gut the original material. "Hey, who cares about making character relationships seem accurate? If it ain't American its SHIT!"
Why not just watch American stuff if you can't handle stuff in different cultures? If the sight of "San" or "Senpai" bothers you that much, you're probably not someone who should be watching anime, since its impossible to get around that stuff while also keeping the original narrative of a story and its characters. |
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Swissman
Posts: 768 Location: Switzerland |
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What has that to do with Americanization? You either translate from one language into another, or you don't. I don't know about english translations of japanese novels (I'm speaking here of high-literature, not stuff catered for anime/manga fans), but in Germany, japanese novels are translated into german *without* any japanese honorifics. A good translator knows how to convey interpersonal relationships without recurring to "-san", "-kun", "-chan" and whatever fancy honorifics anime/manga fans want in their japanese fiction. They do it, because the translation is meant to be read by anyone who is enough interested in reading novels from a different/exotic country but who cannot be expected to learn a whole set of new words just to be able to "get" the "hidden meaning of japanese interpersonal relationships which can only be conveyed in japanese words". So why should anime and manga be an exception? Only to please the fans? |
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RyanSaotome
Posts: 4210 Location: Towson, Maryland |
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Wanting to take out the basis of everyday conversation in Japan, the honorifics, is wanting it to be as American as possible. You can't accurately portray character relationships without honorifics, so its people who just want the dialogue to flow like how typical Americans speak, which doesn't work in Japanese. This sets up a lot of really awkward moments, like characters constantly calling eachother "Mr. and Mrs." for no reason or having completely confusing situations when a character tells another one they can use their first name in the original version. I can understand doing this if you're trying to dumb it down for the viewer... like if its on TV or something. But its pretty insulting to do this for a fansub or a DVD release, since someone who is watching these obviously knows enough about anime to understand the honorifics. They don't need to be treated like an idiot. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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I little useless fact here. the Japanese assimilate foreign words into their language as well. They even use a different syllibary whenever that word is used. Original traditional words? Use Hiragana. Assimilated words? Use Katakana.
On the topic of what programme the Japanese draw on. When ever the NHK's Imagine-Nation programme does a report that includes an interview with a mangaka, or studio drawing anime. I see yes they have a digital tablet on their desk, but they also have the old A3 skitch pads with lots of pencils as well that they do rough drafts on and then trace it on to the digi-pad for finals. So don't drop the basics for glitze of digits. |
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Draneor
 Posts: 355 |
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Generally speaking, if an anime is subtitled only, it's probably not newbie friendly. Potential inclusions of honorifics would be the least of your problems (as opposed to say the content). No one not already deep into anime is going to pick up MM! and think "hey, I'll give that a whirl." |
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Mikeski
Posts: 608 Location: Minneapolis, MN |
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On the other hand, Living for the Day After Tomorrow, Bunny Drop, (half of NISA's catalog, really), Dennou Coil (yay Siren Visual for getting this)... there's plenty of sub-only shows that don't require a stunning level of preexisting Japanophilia to enjoy. |
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Mikeski
Posts: 608 Location: Minneapolis, MN |
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Novels are a bit different; if there's a one-word concept in Japanese that takes twelve words in German, or vice-versa, the novel translator can just do that. In manga, you've got to keep the words in the same bubbles/panels for the most part. In anime, you've got to match the timing of the show. It's possible to use other words or keys to show a switch from 'lastname-san' to 'firstname-kun' to 'firstname', but it's tough when you have to line up the language with who's talking on-screen... especially if the entire line of dialog is just the name. There's places to leave Japanese terms and places to replace them. I grew up in the Karate-Kid-movie era, and "Daniel-San" and "Yes, Sensei" did not confuse me, even as a little kid. I would prefer to hear "men!" and "kote!" instead of "head!" and "forearm!" in a kendo fight. It really doesn't matter whether someone translates "nyan" to "meow" or not. "Baka" and "keikaku" don't belong in subtitles. |
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Chagen46
 Posts: 4377 |
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This entire argument has been going around in circles and has devolved into ad hominem and people yelling at each other.
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Mohawk52
Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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