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NEWS: Manga Scan Site Says It Will Remove Manga


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RestLessone



Joined: 02 Aug 2009
Posts: 1425
Location: New York
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:57 pm Reply with quote
ZiharkXVI wrote:
People should respect the rights of an author, even if it's not something they can find legally in English. It only makes you inconsiderate if you brush off what they want. They created it. They should be able to control it. It's there series, and if they don't want it online, they should be able to say so and have it removed.


>___>

I think you are making the assumption that publishers are the authors? I've already delved into the stark difference. No need to do so further.

Regardless, you make a fautly comparison to the US publishing industry to the Japanese manga publishing one. Misnomer and you should know better.

I know the difference, thank you, but your general attitude of ignoring what publishers ask applies to both. Of course the author is relinquishing some or most of their rights when getting involved with a publisher--I'm not talking rights here, not even sales. I'm talking about being considerate. They might not completely own it, but they've worked with it and created it. If they don't want their series online, then it shouldn't be online.

BrendantheJedi wrote:

Yeah. Most of those thousands are ignored for a small group of front runners. Trust me, it's hard being a writer and you need all the publicity you can get.

I know that. But with manga, we're dealing with a much smaller market. Some publishers are licensing around 10 titles per year, and as soon as they do, the news can spreak like wildfire. As publishers, the businesses are going to have to utilize their resources, be it through free previews and whatever else; ads at the back of volumes, give-a-ways once in awhile, announcements at cons, etc.


Last edited by RestLessone on Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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ZiharkXVI



Joined: 29 Jan 2009
Posts: 226
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:58 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Why do the rise in piracy coincide with a large drop in users? Answer me that, you explain it's because the publishing conpany are making bad "economic decisions" but you have not yet explained how you can make the millions of dollars online while competing with a free service.

I have asked countless people that but no one has ever explained how you can compete with free. The first step to getting healing the industry in America is to get rid of the cancer eating away at the industry maybe then the newly announced Square Enix service can actually suceed.



I don't have to explain it my friend. I just have to point it out. How did the music industry survive? How does the television industry survive? You do know I can find ANY tv show created and download it, correct? I don't, but its totally an option. That's PIRACY.

I've read about OpenManga and stuff like that - genuinely excited to tell the truth, but there is one thing that stops me from being positive. The publishers aren't going to like it. You see, their bottom line is funded from subscriptions or print sold. They aren't going to allow these sites to get off the ground. And they aren't going to create their own cause that will cut into their own printing contracts or departments (depending how large they are). There is a real sense of backwardness about the entire industry that has yet to make real strides forward.

Square Enix's move is a good one, don't get me wrong, but I have yet to see it in action. And with the publishers, I'm always highly skeptical.

The mangaka could probably not care less. In fact, they might well be supportive of such measures to broaden their audiences.

Again, you call the piracy a cancer, but you yourself dare not suggest that it isn't the scanlation sites themselves that have rocketed manga to a popular status it has not previously enjoyed. Why? Cause of ease of use.

Cutbacks may have to happen in the industry regardless. But change better happen darn fast or the future is indeed bleak.

Quote:
I know the difference, thank you, but your general attitude of ignoring what they ask applies to both. Of course the author is relinquishing some or most of their rights when getting involved with a publisher--I'm not talking rights here, not even sales. I'm talking about being considerate. They might not completely own it, but they've worked with it and created it. If they don't want their series online, then it shouldn't be online.


They most likely have no rights whatsoever. That is the point you missed. Undoubtedly contracted away to the publisher themselves. Considerate is nice, but its not a good business strategy. I don't know any mangaka, nor does anyone else. Hard enough to be considerate toward your neighbor. Or even me!

Honestly though, I have not heard a lot from the mangaka. I hear the publishers SAYING that the mangaka are "wounded souls" and that sort of nonsense. Heard plenty from the publishers. Again, they need a scapegoat to tell their investors, "Its not OUR fault! Pirates attacked! Oh noes!"
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:04 am Reply with quote
Kamen Ryter (Ichigo) wrote:
now man, i already don't trust you,
because no man would ever, i mean ever shy away from the word Bullshit, in favor of Bull- excretment.
EXCREMENT, not excretment. Jeeze, you don't spell worth shit.

Quote:
trust issues aside. i find it hard to belive that people that are on that site, buy no manga, no toys, no dvds, no movie passes, tickets to conventions, at all.


But your personal difficulty in believing is not evidence. If even a large minority of a user base rising in a few years from the thousands to the tens of millions were buying any significant numbers of manga as a result of viewing manga on the site, then with the explosion of viewers on the site, the sales figures of manga would have shown the impact.

Its like the clue in the Sherlock Holmes story about the dog that did not bark. If coming upon that site led to people buying DVD's, DVD sales would show an impact. If coming that site led to people buying manga, manga sales would show an impact. Tickets to conventions, I don't know, but the creators of the work do not benefit from conventions except for sales of product, and that would show up in the overall sales figures.

Quote:
its safer to assume i think that they are out there supporting, ...
The safest is not to assume at all, but to look for evidence.

Quote:
... because people will buy stuff if you shut up long enough and stop shoving it down their throats. (contrary to popular belief.)
Yes, I can easily believe that there are a growing number of hypothetical consumers ... people who would buy it except for .... But "except for" ghost consumers do not help a mangaka pay his or her rent.

Quote:
and simply because my theroy has 5 variables, whereas yours has one. and deals in absolutes, totally ignoring the vast gray (very purdy) area in between.
No, simply because I am starting from actual evidence, instead of assumptions.

Quote:
and thats what i mean by common sense, Hoss. now giddy up.
Yes, making bullshit up based on assumptions that seem reasonable to you irrespective of whether the facts support the assumptions or not.
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ZiharkXVI



Joined: 29 Jan 2009
Posts: 226
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:11 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Popularity. Doesn't. Matter. If anything, it probably contributed to the anime and manga bubbles because silly people thought they could actually sell fans stuff they claim to have an interest in. This is not a popularity contest. Art doesn't get created from well-wishes and stardust. Going to bed at night with warm feelings in your heart doesn't get series written, printed, licensed, or digitally distributed.

Manufacturing and production often deals with what are called economies of scale. When you produce more of a product, it actually becomes cheaper to produce one additional unit. Do you know why Naruto volumes are cheaper than most Dark Horse manga volumes? Because Naruto sells more, and thus can be sold at a lower per-unit price. Why are there more shonen series available in English than josei series? Because shonen series sell, and josei series do not. Why don't companies take risks on older shojo titles? Look at the sales figures for Swan or From Eroica With Love.


My goodness, yes it does. Popularity is why you even start turning the engines of your manufacturing and production.

This isn't stardust we're talking about. We're talking about readers!

If a manga has readers, there is a great chance it will sell. Shonen sells? That's why they churn it out. Why don't they take risks? The audience isn't there.

You're not spouting anything new to me. However you go into a long diatribe about why a company would produce or would not produce and its all due to POPULARITY. Popularity drives sales. That's common sense - and in the entertainment industry, almost a forehead slap.

Companies that are doing well take chances on people who have no audience. Companies that aren't? They're looking for what people are reading. As I said before, there are plenty of series that I'm sure your "safe" investor would feel completely against bringing over internationally that may look a little more promising if they notice people actually reading it.

Regardless, the best answer of course is to provide this digitally. Online. The reason little known series ever stand a chance is because of either a tight nit home audience or an audience is perusing through an available collection and happens upon them. And that is most efficiently done online, as we've seen with the scanlation sites.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:13 am Reply with quote
ZiharkXVI wrote:
I've read about OpenManga and stuff like that - genuinely excited to tell the truth, but there is one thing that stops me from being positive. The publishers aren't going to like it. You see, their bottom line is funded from subscriptions or print sold. They aren't going to allow these sites to get off the ground.


Then why have they been moving into digital manga distribution in Japan? You are saying that when Bitway, the joint venture of Toppan Publishing and 34 Japanese book publishers said at the beginning of this month
Quote:
Bitway COO Tadashi Awano said: "Thus far, it has been a challenge to address the economically sustainable digitalization of Japanese manga outside of Japan. With Crunchyroll and its expertise in engineering, social media and the consumer, we hope to be able to shepherd Japanese manga's entrance into the digital era outside of Japan."
... they were basically lying.

Quote:
And they aren't going to create their own cause that will cut into their own printing contracts or departments (depending how large they are). There is a real sense of backwardness about the entire industry that has yet to make real strides forward.
And indeed, that Bitway does not actually exist in Japan at all ... it is a fiction being told to a gullible American audience, but in reality there is no digital distribution of manga in Japan.
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OtakuExile



Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Posts: 202
Location: Neo Vegas
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:14 am Reply with quote
Ahhh,.... One Manga has to change. Guess I'll have to go to google and go to the other thousands of sites to continue to do the same damn thing.

Get ready for the backlash. It's going to happen. I used One manga for One piece and Baki Son of Ogre. So......really no big loss. I already found replacements.

My question now is, why do we have 17 pages of nerds throwing text at eachother?
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3085
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:16 am Reply with quote
ZiharkXVI wrote:


I don't have to explain it my friend. I just have to point it out. How did the music industry survive? How does the television industry survive? You do know I can find ANY tv show created and download it, correct? I don't, but its totally an option. That's PIRACY.

I've read about OpenManga and stuff like that - genuinely excited to tell the truth, but there is one thing that stops me from being positive. The publishers aren't going to like it. You see, their bottom line is funded from subscriptions or print sold. They aren't going to allow these sites to get off the ground. And they aren't going to create their own cause that will cut into their own printing contracts or departments (depending how large they are). There is a real sense of backwardness about the entire industry that has yet to make real strides forward.

Square Enix's move is a good one, don't get me wrong, but I have yet to see it in action. And with the publishers, I'm always highly skeptical.

The mangaka could probably not care less. In fact, they might well be supportive of such measures to broaden their audiences.

Again, you call the piracy a cancer, but you yourself dare not suggest that it isn't the scanlation sites themselves that have rocketed manga to a popular status it has not previously enjoyed. Why? Cause of ease of use.

Cutbacks may have to happen in the industry regardless. But change better happen darn fast or the future is indeed bleak.

Quote:
I know the difference, thank you, but your general attitude of ignoring what they ask applies to both. Of course the author is relinquishing some or most of their rights when getting involved with a publisher--I'm not talking rights here, not even sales. I'm talking about being considerate. They might not completely own it, but they've worked with it and created it. If they don't want their series online, then it shouldn't be online.


They most likely have no rights whatsoever. That is the point you missed. Undoubtedly contracted away to the publisher themselves. Considerate is nice, but its not a good business strategy. I don't know any mangaka, nor does anyone else. Hard enough to be considerate toward your neighbor. Or even me!

Honestly though, I have not heard a lot from the mangaka. I hear the publishers SAYING that the mangaka are "wounded souls" and that sort of nonsense. Heard plenty from the publishers. Again, they need a scapegoat to tell their investors, "Its not OUR fault! Pirates attacked! Oh noes!"


TV has ads, and the music industry has concerts, the manga industry and anime industry traditionally only has ads for their own products, meaning that the sales are going to come from DVDs, manga volumes, and products. That's a very limited amount of merchandise to sell. So how can a MANGA company make money in this enviroment. You can't just claim that what worked for one industry would work for another.

You claim that One Manga performed some great service by expanding the manga fandom but that's meaningless if these new fans don't actually buy anything from the publisher's so more manga can be brought over than the whole thing is meaningless.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:17 am Reply with quote
ZiharkXVI wrote:
Popularity is why you even start turning the engines of your manufacturing and production.
Only popularity among potential customers willing to buy. Popularity among people who are willing to be consumer but unwilling to be customers aint worth nothing unless its possible to sell their eyeballs to advertisers.
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ZiharkXVI



Joined: 29 Jan 2009
Posts: 226
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:18 am Reply with quote
Agila -

I don't normally bother with press quotes. That stuff is for people who don't know better.

That's the sort of thing they tell investors to calm them into thinking that they're moving on and embracing the "digital age".

He's not actually lying (they aren't allowed to do that). Look carefully. "It has been a challenge.....blah, blah, blah.....to shepard Japanese manga's entrance into the digital era?"

That says absolutely nothing.

I will believe it when I see it. Not hear it. Cause I've heard plenty of talk.



Quote:
You claim that One Manga performed some great service by expanding the manga fandom but that's meaningless if these new fans don't actually buy anything from the publisher's so more manga can be brought over than the whole thing is meaningless.




Good night they weren't even allowed to! Most of the stuff I'm talking about never even makes it over here. Or takes years.

I'm not talking about Naruto or Bleach or whatever the most popular manga out there is (don't honestly care about them).

Those manga do well regardless cause even if it is online for free they provide a willing and ready audience who will buy. Honestly, if you don't go out and purchase the manga that we get on time here in the States you really ARE a thief.

When a fan reads something that he can't pick up in the store, how is he supposed to contribute? Send a donation to a Japanese company? *shakes head* That's nonsensical and counterintuitive.


Last edited by ZiharkXVI on Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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bayoab



Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 831
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:25 am Reply with quote
ZiharkXVI wrote:
You're not spouting anything new to me. However you go into a long diatribe about why a company would produce or would not produce and its all due to POPULARITY. Popularity drives sales. That's common sense - and in the entertainment industry, almost a forehead slap.

Popularity isn't everything. It has to do with the ability to make a profit. There are series in Japan which sell only a thousand copies and yet they keep making more because they have hardcore dedicated fans who will buy things and thus make a profit for the associated companies.

Conversely, (and this is almost entirely a US issue), there are many series which have been insanely popular online and then sold extremely poorly. Sales and internet popularity have a very low correlation. Yes, they tend to do "better" than series which aren't "popular", but on a percentage wise, they do even worse and tend to cost more.
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ZiharkXVI



Joined: 29 Jan 2009
Posts: 226
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:28 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Conversely, (and this is almost entirely a US issue), there are many series which have been insanely popular online and then sold extremely poorly. Sales and internet popularity have a very low correlation. Yes, they tend to do "better" than series which aren't "popular", but on a percentage wise, they do even worse and tend to cost more.


I agree, and this is why I explained myself.

This is the conundrum of why many print companies will not take chances on less popular manga or manga only popular online.

However, this is precisely why a digital solution is required.

Obviously just providing the manga is not enough. People want it digital.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3085
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:33 am Reply with quote
ZiharkXVI wrote:


I agree, and this is why I explained myself.

This is the conundrum of why many print companies will not take chances on less popular manga or manga only popular online.

However, this is precisely why a digital solution is required.

Obviously just providing the manga is not enough. People want it digital.


People want it free, when given a choice between paying and free people will always choose free.
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ZiharkXVI



Joined: 29 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:40 am Reply with quote
Quote:
People want it free, when given a choice between paying and free people will always choose free.


Ah, the fundamental argument. This is what it boils down to. How badly do people want it?

Entertainment isn't something any of us need. Its not food, water, or an essential.

So why do people pay for it? Cause they WANT it. The trick in entertainment as well as any other industry where you're selling something nobody needs is getting them to pay for it.

Tale as old as time really.

Look, at the moment, you leave many with very few choices. And they're not all that attractive ones. The companies are shutting down fansites that people enjoy reading manga on. So now comes the question, "So are you going to sell this to us?" Cause if so, then I'm perfectly happy, as well as anyone who isn't a thief (and most fans are not criminals).

Provide a digital site that does substantially the same thing and you will do better than you might imagine. Now, you may need to take some extra steps into fooling people into becoming customers, to start paying for what they used to take for granted. But it is possible. Those who claim it isn't are simply what I started calling the publishers at the very beginning: blind.
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Phantom14



Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 86
Location: USA
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:10 am Reply with quote
ZiharkXVI wrote:
Quote:
Popularity. Doesn't. Matter. If anything, it probably contributed to the anime and manga bubbles because silly people thought they could actually sell fans stuff they claim to have an interest in. This is not a popularity contest. Art doesn't get created from well-wishes and stardust. Going to bed at night with warm feelings in your heart doesn't get series written, printed, licensed, or digitally distributed.

Manufacturing and production often deals with what are called economies of scale. When you produce more of a product, it actually becomes cheaper to produce one additional unit. Do you know why Naruto volumes are cheaper than most Dark Horse manga volumes? Because Naruto sells more, and thus can be sold at a lower per-unit price. Why are there more shonen series available in English than josei series? Because shonen series sell, and josei series do not. Why don't companies take risks on older shojo titles? Look at the sales figures for Swan or From Eroica With Love.


My goodness, yes it does. Popularity is why you even start turning the engines of your manufacturing and production.

This isn't stardust we're talking about. We're talking about readers!

If a manga has readers, there is a great chance it will sell. Shonen sells? That's why they churn it out. Why don't they take risks? The audience isn't there.

You're not spouting anything new to me. However you go into a long diatribe about why a company would produce or would not produce and its all due to POPULARITY. Popularity drives sales. That's common sense - and in the entertainment industry, almost a forehead slap.

Companies that are doing well take chances on people who have no audience. Companies that aren't? They're looking for what people are reading. As I said before, there are plenty of series that I'm sure your "safe" investor would feel completely against bringing over internationally that may look a little more promising if they notice people actually reading it.

Regardless, the best answer of course is to provide this digitally. Online. The reason little known series ever stand a chance is because of either a tight nit home audience or an audience is perusing through an available collection and happens upon them. And that is most efficiently done online, as we've seen with the scanlation sites.


popularity can only go so far in actual sales. How many actual mangas can you name that were very popular on the internet from some scanilation group or manga hosting site that was actually licensed and sold HALF as well as naruto, bleach,one pice, negima, or FMA.

Publishers can not use ye old way of fan-subs and scans anymore to project sales of their products. Too many of the people that watch and read these series are being hand fed and will not spend the money for the series that they just stole.

Publishers are going to have to change their model of projecting sales. Actual market research through will come along way and provide a more substantial ground for projecting sales on any particular series in general then a scanilation site or a hosting site will do because those that took the time to provide the information (outsourced or not) are more likely to spend money on the product.

The biggest constraint to securing sales as to piracy of the mangas and anime series is TIME. Die hard fans of any series are easily seduced into taking the pirated series becuse they love the series and cant wait see what happens next in the series. Waiting a few weeks or months is a painstaking endeavor. (we have all been there dont bs me*im one too) I would like to think that also the die hard will pay what they owe when said series becomes available in their area. But in the real world not all will for whatever the reason may be.

Now we all know what the solution is to this problem. If a small team of fans(3-5) can distribute over the internet at a low cost to themselves for FREE a series (anime or manga) to reach over 20mil people all over the world, imagine what a publisher with actual resources on a real budget (no matter how low) can do! The race to be the first one to put out a real product in a relatively good quality wins.

The prise to be first has GREAT potential. For example, people will wait hours to be the first to buy a new iphone paying HUNDREDS of dollars KNOWING that their will be bugs, and that three months down the line that same product will cheaper 100$ less without the bugs. To top that off something better will come out the next year or two that is better and cheaper. Why? Because they wanted the privilege to be first to have the satisfaction of the fact they they were first before you and me.

Publishers should take note that if they really want to hurt piracy, they have to be first! If you can pump out the product first you win the race. why would your customers wait for some scanner to release knowing that the official release comes out faster? They wont, even if you charge them a decent price for having that satisfaction of being the first to read or watch.

The good that has come out of one manga is that now they know that their is a market of digital distribution of manga. The catch is that they have to release that product in the same manner that crunchyroll has been doing to anime. That is the key to digital distribution. That is the true next step for all the publishers, because this is the heart of their problem with piracy. killing sites like one manga is only the first step in this whole fiasco of digital piracy.

Bloody hell i might as well wirte some kind of editorial or something.
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loka



Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:21 am Reply with quote
Penguin_Factory wrote:
Those scans are still illegal. If the law is to mean anything, it must be applied consistently.


Come now - don't be bringing even more ridiculous arguments in here. You don't want all of the current laws enforced consistently.

--

"Popularity doesn't matter." That's a new one to me. Oh, and others are saying quality of release doesn't matter either. Yen Press is doing well. Must be magic.
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