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Zac wrote:

That's sorta my question. Why bother defending it? Why even bother being so public about it? We get it, they think 8-year olds are totally hot, gotcha. Is it so hard to just keep it to themselves? Why does the whole world have to know about it?

Honestly, I'm not that particularly vocal about it unless the subject is brought up and people attempt to infringe upon my right to freedom. It's possible that you're interpreting what I've said wrong but my point was never to say "I think 8-year olds are hot". I thought that was obvious though.

Zac wrote:

I guess the concept of "shame" or "a remote understanding of the way people will view them once they find out they're sexually attracted to children" is a foreign one in these waters

I put the concept of "freedom" above the concept of "what other people think about me".

In addition, don't think that I feel no shame for this. It has definately come to my mind before. Although most of what I look at involves no rape, I still think about it. I know I'm not the only one either. On a certain very popular loli community, the "Guilt" thread is actually one of the largest in the forums. Of course, I'm sure there are people who feel no shame for it, but for the large majority of lolicon, I think it is something that often comes to mind.

There was still a few issues I wanted to address that I made no mention of in the last thread. I mainly wanted to express my opinion on each of the arguements for and against loli.

"Lolicon is SICK! I can't believe people are defending this"

One of the worst and unfortunetly most common arguements against loli. Like saying this over and over again is somehow going to magically change my mind.

I can see who people can find this to be disgusting and I'm aware of that... but what disturbs me the most is that people find this to be absolutely sick while extreme violence, murder, mass killing (including children), and violence in general is perfectly fine (in fictional works).

"Your opinion doesn't count if you support loli"

Surprisingly, this arguement has been brought up by more than one person. In my opinion (which doesn't count btw), the most absurd arguement in this debate. People are saying that I am so deeply rooted in my opinion that I am unwilling to change (which to some extent is true, but I think it's somewhat true of everyone on some subjects though), but at least I'm not so deeply rooted in my opinion as to say all other opinions don't count. I honestly see the side that is against loli as being more unwilling to change...

"Freedom should have no limits"

One person in particular is arguing this point and frankly I find it to be pretty absurd. Freedom does have its limits if it infringes upon others rights, which real child pornography does. Loli does not affect anyone as it is a drawing.

"What if you get tired of loli and decide to take it up a notch? (real child pornography or raping actual children)"

I can see how someone could think this and it may to some extent, but I don't see how loli leads to it anymore than porn does to rape, horror films do to murder, etc.

"Loli is the same as real child pornography"

Despite the obvious difference that one is animated and one is not, the existance of real child pornography means that a real child has been abused/raped. Loli doesn't hurt anybody and no one was harmed in the making of it. I don't see how I can put it any more plainly than that.

"What if the media finds out about the popularity of loli and labels anime as animated pornography?"

The best arguement against loli in my opinion, and one that actually has some logic behind it. Despite whether or not it is right or wrong, I'm completely aware that loli is socially unacceptable and it would not be good if any kind of media were to do some report about "anime is a haven for pedos". Because of this, I don't try to bring it up on any forums other than "underground" ones. I know I brought it up on the recent thread about Today in Class 5-2, so I'm sorry about that. I'll refrain from doing it in the future.

Pleroma wrote:

Quote:

So what you're saying is that we shouldn't be down on lolicon because it isn't real and it's not the same as photographs of the same things happening to real kids

I would REALLY like to see Zac actually address the rape porn comparison. The two are practically the same as they are fictionalized depictions of crimes so if you are behemently against one you shouold by all accounts be as behemently against the other.

Me too. Let's see it Zac.

In fact, I'd like to see anyone address this point. I already addressed all of the points (if I forgot one, I'll be glad to say something about it), so lets see what you guys have to say about this.

If you feel shame for liking lolicon, is that not a sign that there is something wrong about liking it?

I can't believe it. I can't believe how many people on here are trying to justify such sick fantasies. I've been watching anime and reading manga for a good 13 years, and it almost makes me want to quit.

How can I be like these people? YES, I said it. THESE people. Oh no, am I----

Oh god, I can't do it.

Let me start off by stating that I am a fan of anime. I don't like lolicon at all. I find it repugnant. I think age of consent laws are good the way they are, too. Also, for context's sake, let me add that when I was young I had a bad experience related to issues along these lines, I don't want to and doubt I need to go into detail with that, though.

Nonetheless, I believe that anyone who so desires has the right to partake in lolicon anime or any other kind of virtual child pornography they like, so long as no one under the age of 18 is involved in its creation in any way.

Why? I think this not because I think that lolicon is a good thing, but because I think that the freedom for those who desire it to have access to legal, fictional, virtual child pornography is not only good in that it preserves their first amendment rights, but also in that, in some cases, it might discourage their moving on to real child pornography. After all, why risk it if they find the fake version just as enjoyable?

To say that John Doe might go rape his daughter if he reads an H Cardcaptor Sakura doujinshi is equivalent to saying that I might go murder someone after playing a rousing game of Grand Theft Auto.

Since lolicon anime has no direct victim, it is victimless in the same sense as any other medium presenting a virtual representation of any other illegal or immoral act.

I can see perfect justification for hating lolicon, but hating the people who enjoy lolicon, purely on the basis that they enjoy lolicon, seems synonymous with simple bigotry to me.

However, there is still the issue of, "What if the media picks up on this?" Well, every decade or so has its scapegoat. Remember when people thought Dungeons and Dragons and roleplaying games in general were Satanic? Remember when rock music was "dangerous?" Remember Jack Thompson? Anime, and its fans, will probably have ill thought of them on a wide scale eventually, just like most other media.

However, the moment someone tries to sexually abuse an actual child they should be locked up, and the key should be reduced to its component molecules.

For a much more educated, clearly written, and reputable source, I recommend this paper from Duke University: http://www.law.duke.edu/journals/dltr/articles/2002dltr0019.html

Please note also that this post is not intended to offend anyone. However, if it has offended you, I offer my sincerest apologies for the offense. Nonetheless, I stand by my argument. Thank you.

[Addendum: Josh7289, though I have no experience with the matter myself. I expect that a lolicon fan might experience shame for their hobby in the same way that some people feel shame for masturbation. They're doing something that they don't see a logical problem with, but, since they were young, "THIS IS WRONG" has been burned onto their subconcious in bold capital letters, and it would probably be a long time before that branding mark faded.]

Josh7289 wrote:

If you feel shame for liking lolicon, is that not a sign that there is something wrong about liking it?

Morally, yes. But looking at it from a logical standpoint, I don't see it to be any worse than many other thing that are socially accepted. Problem is that most people are letting their morals completely get in the way of looking and thinking about it logically and this is where the problem comes in. This is mainly contributed to the American media's power of brainwashing as I see it.

The lolicon people are lucky they're not in Nippon. The nipponese hate this pedophilia. Lolicon is as extremely underground even compared to otaku anime. This "plague" usually atracts the sexually reclusive outcast. Most people attracted to lolicon usually have horrible social skills. I could cite John O, but we already know he is a creep with a one track mind favorance of lolicon. I interpret Zac's comment's as the anime fandom must shy away from these otaku. I don't want to be verbally lynched when I buy an Yu Yu Hakusho DVD.

what part of of if your spanking it to loli's your a pedo dont people understand?

thats all Im saying just admit you like little girls/boys and move on dont try to justify it with "oh but there not real" that may work for the legal debate but not for the main core of lolicom a sexual attraction to little kids. ie omg Sakura chan is so hot I want to do her).

YUGI wrote:

The lolicon people are lucky they're not in Nippon. The nipponese hate this pedophilia. Lolicon is es extremely underground even compared to an otaku anime. This "plague" usually atracts the sexually reclusive outcast. Most people attracted to lolicon usually have horrible social skills.

You have absolutely zero proof to back this up. And when talking in English, use the English word for Japan.

Do we really need to go through another 36 pages of this again?

Zac's selections for the letters were heavily biased. He chose a contradicting rant for the one in favor of lolicon and chose more that were against lolicon. It seems to me his aim was to once again cement his beliefs into us.

If you like lolicon as long as you don't progress to real children then it seems perfectly fine to me. If you don't like it then please get a better defense than "Eww. You're a sick pedophile". The morality arguement does not always work here either because I am certain almost everyone one of you has a fetish that someone else finds sick.

And for the record I do not care one way or another for lolicon.

Thanks Zac for addressing the issue again. I wasn't surprised at the supporting fans of Lolicon because I recently argued it with other manga friends who thought Chi was the hottest babe in the world. It made me sick to think that they posted that girl's pic on the wall and lusted after it. All I saw was a small child in a fluffy dress in a sexual pose.

But then that's what CLAMP is now famous for, drawing one thing and then explaining away as something else. If it wasn't for their success with Cardcaptor Sakura and Chobits, you and I wouldn't be having this discussion for a while. You know, that "media's power of brainwashing".

But all you Lolicon fans, go ahead and fantasize to the height of your desires. You see, the United Stated Supreme Court recently ruled that child pornography is legal as long as no real children were harmed in the making of it. So put your lolicon posters all over your workplace. After all, you're protected because we can't discriminate against you for your "sexual preference". After all, there's nothing wrong with just fantasizing so why shouldn't you?? Let's not "let our morals completely get in the way" here as PantsGoblin says.

molloaggie wrote:

Thanks Zac for addressing the issue again. I wasn't surprised at the supporting fans of Lolicon because I recently argued it with other manga friends who thought Chi was the hottest babe in the world. It made me sick to think that they posted that girl's pic on the wall and lusted after it. All I saw was a small child in a fluffy dress in a sexual pose.

But then that's what CLAMP is now famous for, drawing one thing and then explaining away as something else. If it wasn't for their success with Cardcaptor Sakura and Chobits, you and I wouldn't be having this discussion for a while. You know, that "media's power of brainwashing".

But all you Lolicon fans, go ahead and fantasize to the height of your desires. You see, the United Stated Supreme Court recently ruled that child pornography is legal as long as no real children were harmed in the making of it. So put your lolicon posters all over your workplace. After all, you're protected because we can't discriminate against you for your "sexual preference". After all, there's nothing wrong with just fantasizing so why shouldn't you?? Let's not "let our morals completely get in the way" here as PantsGoblin says.

I honestly can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

Quote:

Morally, yes. But looking at it from a logical standpoint, I don't see it to be any worse than many other thing that are socially accepted. Problem is that most people are letting their morals completely get in the way of looking and thinking about it logically and this is where the problem comes in. This is mainly contributed to the American media's power of brainwashing as I see it.

One could present an argument that murder for money is logical as long as you can get away with it. While I certianly don't advocate using religious morals to dictate social tolerance, there are morals that are almost universally accepted by most rational people, and I think the majority of people (even those who enjoy loli) can agree that having sex with children is not moral. I don't advocate banning something like loli and while people who do enjoy it creep me, they certianly aren't criminals who should be sent to concentration camps like many people advocate. That said, I think there are FAR too many consiquences with the argument that loli-con/child fetishs should be socially acceptable.
The whole rape porn comparison does present an interesting argument. I'm sure just like there are many people that are able to seperate their fantasies from reality in both of the fetishes and would never consider actually harming a woman/child. That said, I think that the rape fetish is far more common than a loli one amoung adult men, and most importantly people are able to act out rape scenarios with consent from their partner.
But I basically agree with Zac, especially on the point of the whole "LOLI PRIDE" subject. I even remember hearing a comparison of pedofiles in modern America to how gays used to be treated, as if having a relationship with a concenting adult of you own sex had anything in common with taking advantage of a child.

Pleroma wrote:

Absolutely true, but really not very germane since we are talking about (I assume) prepubescent children. I think a fair guideline for age of consent is biological maturity since its a reasonable assumption that a child not physically ready for sex should not be making decisons about it.

However situations such as the one recently featured on Dateline where an 18 year old got hmm serviced by a quite willing 15 year old at a paty is serving time as a child molestor is quite francly a horrible travesty. Even the jury didn't want to convict but they were forced to by the unscrupulous prosecutor.

Nobody will argue that a 15 or 14 year old going to see some 40 year old stranger at a motel is stupid (its stupid at any age) but if she made the decision it should be legal. Ditto if she stripped on a webcam, the guy on the receiving end is just a damn smooth operator, not a criminal.

SO a girl of 12, who is already has a womanly figure, has can consent while a 20 who is still developing can't? One has to use common sense, I mean if a ten-year-old says that she's completly in love with a 25 year-old guy, then it's ok. I mean how sad is that guy that he has to date 10 year-old girls? and what does a 10 year old know about love? She might be mature for her age, but she can't trully understand the entire consequences of those types of decisions.

Oh, so if a guy tells you that he can get you a PHd in two weeks, for 1/10 of the price, then he's smooth, and not a cheat, or a criminal? Granted your average person knows better, but there people preying on the ignorant, but if they say's it's ok, even though they're being lied to straight to thier faces, then it's not illegal? Isn't that called entering into acontract under false pre-tenses?

I terms of lolicon itself, if that's your fetish, then enjoy, because it's just your choice to enjoy. I abhore it, but that's my opinion. If a person can't tell the difference between animated porn and real life, then that's a real danger.

This lolicon thing has really gotten out of hand, I've heard a few similar mentions by even your average joe recently. Lately, when I go to the store to buy an anime (and yes, it obviously has nothing to do with lolicon) and I'll see a guy who I knew from school. I pretend lthat I didn't see him, and I'll hide the DVD I'm holding at my side.

Why do I have to be afraid to do stuff that obviously has nothing wrong with it? This can only go downhill from here.

P.S. I've noticed a lot of time posters in the last two forums, are lolicon supporters actually trying to bring in people who will defend their cause? If this is true, it's obvious the lolicon people have lost this arguement (I know PantsGoblin is an exception, as he said in the last forum, he did not intentionally bring a friend in to support him).

molloaggie wrote:

But then that's what CLAMP is now famous for, drawing one thing and then explaining away as something else. If it wasn't for their success with Cardcaptor Sakura and Chobits, you and I wouldn't be having this discussion for a while. You know, that "media's power of brainwashing".

Since I'm not familiar with what you were talking about here, could you please explain it for me?

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