Forum - View topicBleach Manga Enters 'Climax' In 2 Chapters
|
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Somewhere
Posts: 361 |
|
|||||||
|
Whoa, leave Kochikame out of it. It's got the world record iron man streak going for it. Plus, asking to kill it is like asking for the Simpsons to get axed; you don't. Unless you want to lose your job, then go ahead.
Yea, the sales have been pretty low for at least 8 years. These past 8 years being after it turned 32. This is some bizarre uncharted territory. Now, in its younger days, it wasn't that bad a seller at all. And by younger I mean, 'oh, back when it was 14+ years old, cause the earliest individual initial print numbers for it go back to 1990'. [url]http://www.geocities.jp/wj_log/rank/rank0.html#こち亀[/url] From 1990 to 1998 (there's a gap between 1998 and 2006), when it was 14 to 22 years old the initial print numbers vary between 580k and 800k. That spans volumes 61 to 101. And there's even some up and down in there, as opposed to just straight down! Those print numbers are... basically 11 to 15 year old Bleach numbers. Bleach's initial print numbers were 800k for vol 53 in 2012 falling down to 480k for vol 71 this year. Old man Kochikame wasn't doing so shabby. Geriatric Kochikame sells a lot less, yea. Vol 144 in 2006 had an initial print of 395k, when it's ~30 years old. Then it declined further to 300k for vol 169 in 2011, when it was nearing 35 years old. And now 160k for vol 197 this year as it approaches its 40th anniversary. The Oricon sales numbers aren't as sharp with the decline though; remarkably stable, actually. Hell, still being able to sell 50k within 2 weeks as you're approaching 40 is pretty interesting. My assumption with the cuts to print numbers would be Shueisha being pessimistic on the later buyers; that a larger and larger percentage of its buyers get their copies early. But there's still a relatively large gap between the short term sales and the print numbers. Shueisha probably isn't all that opposed to having some stock of Kochikame volumes sitting in storage for eventual buyers. Plus, it's a comfort series for the 13.2% of WSJ readers who are 30 or older. Yea, the surprisingly not that tiny niche of older people buying this magazine targeting young boys. And lately it hasn't even always been at the bottom of the rankings. Which speaks more about the series below it than Kochikame itself. Or the presence of the old man vote. But yea, at the end of the day, iron man Akimoto has license to keep running up his streak as much as he wants. By the way, my thinking would be similar with Bleach's numbers. The print numbers are going down faster than the sales themselves. I interpret it as pessimism on the number of people buying multiple weeks/months after release. Although I will admit to being surprised on the cut from 600k print last year (vol 66) to 480k this year (vol 71). Of course, as we eventually find out from the mid-year charts, vol 71 sold 461k after 80 days. Still 19k copies leftover from the initial print, or about 4%. Cutting it closer than the vol 66 estimate did; seling 565k after 322 days, compared to initial print of 600k. Just under 35k leftover at the time then, or ~5-6%. There's gotta be a reprint somewhere for vol 71 and/or 72, after looking at the cumulative print totals for 1-71 and 1-72. Or a rather liberal rounding up of numbers. Trashing Toriko's fine though. And guess Bleach's finale/15th anniversary wasn't enough to trump the tradition of One Piece getting the Obon issue cover/lead. (I honestly don't know why that's a thing, but it's been the case since 2009) |
||||||||
|
||||||||
CrowLia
 Posts: 5505 Location: Mexico |
|
|||||||
|
I never said Kochikame should get axed. I'm saying that if that series gets respectful treatment in spite of its low sales and ranks, claiming Bleach doesn't deserve the same is hypocritical. And that was exactly my point with Toriko. If they're already killing it, why not finish doing that, since it's not half as successful in terms of business as Bleach still is. If you have two series up for the guillotine, why drop it on the one that makes more money.
|
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Somewhere
Posts: 361 |
|
|||||||
|
Honestly? Kochikame's just far more of an entrenched icon. It's the old man who's been around since the magazine was a youngster. It's been through the ups and downs over multiple decades. It's kind of like their Simpsons, minus the zombie Simpsons criticism. The sheer, uninterrupted longevity alone introduces expectation for its existence from the people who grew up with the mag over the past few decades, including the employees coming and going. There's a comfort there for the older guys who want to see how Akimoto's gonna make jokes related to whatever is happening in Japan.
The main disconnect here is; my evaluation of Bleach's stature within the mag is noticably lower than yours, is basically what it comes down to. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
Souther
 Posts: 602 |
|
|||||||
|
I'm with Somewhere here, Kochikame has done more than Bleach in earning the prestige it's treated with, though I'm not knocking on Bleach either. Plus the other points Somewhere mentioned as well. So I don't think the two are comparable.
I'm not gonna pretend to know the reasons behind Bleach's ending and its lack of fanfare for its anniversary either. But it's been a wild ride. Last edited by Souther on Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:18 pm; edited 6 times in total |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Larkan
Posts: 73 |
|
|||||||
|
Kochikame is exempt from rankings like Isobee(a more recent manga that is also exempt from rankings).
Its basically a go ahead sign for the author to do whatever he wants for as long as he wants (the position Kochikame is put in every issue is most likely the place the editors decide to put in) Obon is cover is a special cover with all characters of the magazine (OP gets the Lead CP because its anniversary is celebrated in obon) WSJ doesn't normally give covers to series that are ending (only series that got it was Slam Dunk and there is some talk about it that the author only announced it was the last chapter when it was already printed) Last edited by Larkan on Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||
|
||||||||
Black Turtle
 Posts: 110 |
|
|||||||
I read somewhere it's the case, and it's probably the next on the list. As Gintama, that also is planned to end soon. But I can't remember where, so it's to take with caution. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Monster Hunter
Posts: 335 |
|
|||||||
Toriko this entire last arc has felt like it is sprinting to the finale. The mangaka was probably told that he needs to wrap up the series or they would cancel it. So he has gone through and trying to wrap every possible story thread he has. Hence why so many chapters are nothing but gigantic exposition dumps on the readers. The series is definitely ending in the next 10 or so chapters because the big bad has been revealed almost all of the established villains have been killed off and the food "God" has been introduced and both Toriko and the main villain are fighting over who gets to eat it. Kubo on the other hand has been dragging his feet to finish this series. Look at all the last fights with the Ywach's guard. Each fight was at least 4 chapters or more with each chapter ending with a fake out. First the hero would look like they were defeated, then they would turn it around and the villain looked defeated, then vice versa, vice versa until villain was killed. Renasviel was right it took Ichigo FOREVER to even return to the story after his training and then it took forever for him to even get up to God and then he got knocked down again. The editors probably got sick of it with him dragging his feet and told him that was it wrap it up. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
Top Gun
 Posts: 4576 |
|
|||||||
|
I don't even read the series myself, but when I have friends who tell me about such pacing gems as spoiler[Mayuri fighting a giant hand] for three solid months, then yeah, Kubo had more than enough time to at least attempt to wrap this up properly. He's a big boy, and he's been a part of the industry long enough that the writing on the wall should have been obvious to him. Instead he chose to spend the past few years on the sort of ultimately entirely-pointless generic mook fights that have plagued the series since the Soul Society arc ended.
|
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
k11chi
Posts: 5 |
|
|||||||
Kubo said when the final arc started that it would be longer than the arrancar saga. It's not longer. In the interview back in fullbring arc he had already mentioned some of the things he had wanted to do in this arc. Too bad Ichigo didn't even get his sub-boss fight in this arc. Or Byakua. Or Shinji, Ryuken, Isshin, etc. All of whom would more than likely had atleast as long a fight as Mayuri vs Pernida. Kubo is not a "big boy." He's a legend with over 90 million copies sold. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Monster Hunter
Posts: 335 |
|
|||||||
Oh boy Kubo is in no way a legend in the manga community. He had one great arc and from there he started rolling downhill. He doesn't even have 90 million copies sold he has sold around 83-84 million as of his last volume 73. Even then he has barely sold over a million copies per volume which isn't that great of a ratio. You want to know who are legends in the manga industry the likes of Osamu Tezuka the father of manga and anime, Akira Toriyama the father of modern shounen, and now Eiichiro Oda the highest selling mankaga of all time. Those guys are legends Kubo is a guy who could have been great but got lost up his own ass. He isn't a really good mangaka because while he can draw really nice characters he sucks at everything else. His backgrounds are as bare as possible. His background generally consist of pure white backgrounds look at Hueco Mundo or white rectangular buildings like Soul Society. His layout of panels sucks since he wastes so many pages and panels on worthless shots like characters feet or standing there multiple times in a chapter. Lastly his writing is minimal at best. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Somewhere
Posts: 361 |
|
|||||||
|
I think that 'legend' is a topic to be tabled for years later; it's really a matter of influence/impact down the road. Keep an eye out for if/when creators talk about who their influences and inspirations are. Especially if future stars cite someone. For example, Horikoshi's emergence with Boku no Hero Academia is a growing credit toward Oda and Kishi, as far as the latter two's works setting examples. Or like how part of Toriyama being a legend is his influence on the Oda and Kishi generation. And naturally, Tezuka has his influence on the whole industry.
Of course, legend isn't necessarily restricted to just later manga, as I'd say that Takehiko Inoue's Slam Dunk qualifies as a legend from the combination of its popularity (a credible twin tower pairing with Dragonball within Japan) and its part in raising basketball's profile in Japan. Which means that the question is, will we see future stars inspired by Kubo? |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Black Turtle
Posts: 110 |
|
|||||||
I'm sorry but no. It's easy to getting 90 million copies sold with 72 volume is not an exploit. Even if numbers are not up to date, an depending of the date, they could be augmented (I calculated 95m for bleach right now, if it sold as well as it was sold during the whole series, and we all know it isn't), you can have a good idea of the popularity by dividing the numbers by the number of volume. you will see that even if it do good, bleach is far from the best of today, and far from the best of tomorrow. As I said in a previous post, he is Ranma 1/2 or Dragon Quest Dai no daibokken lvl. Which is good. but still, calling it a legend because of the sales and just counting the number of copies without correlating it with the number of volume is just wrong. And as Somewhere said, I think the term Legend should be given because of the influence. And in this field, bleach is nowhere remarquable. Except in the art. Yeah, bleach is beautiful, that's the only point that will be remembered. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
Ambimunch
 Posts: 2012 |
|
|||||||
It's not my idea that they're ruining it, it's a FACT. They oppressed Kubo and took away his creative freedom for years - he was their "slave" writing the series how they dictated rather than the series he wanted.
Good for the Japanese, it doesn't change the fact that all those series are mediocre. Take away OP and the magazine has practically nothing going for it - that's the problem. Those relatively popular shows won't generate the revenue that OP does. And instead of keeping their catalogue diverse they're ending a lot of the series they have. (I am not saying Bleach carried them lol, no, the way Kubo has been had by WSJ is just the catalyst for me to point out numerous of their business issues)
Nope, Bleach does not need to end. There is more to tell and the author is not being given the chance to do it.
Why do you think that I like Shonen crap? My beloved series are light years superior than most stories SJ ever produced. I am simply defending the injustice towards an author, nobody deserves to be treated like this - and I could really care less what you think, what they did to Kubo is disrespectful and unprofessional, deal with it. Meanwhile, all I see from you is hate and not a single point of relevance, you have no argument at all, just angry ranting and attacks at people who like something you don't. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Monster Hunter
Posts: 335 |
|
|||||||
Really he was their slave dude get over your obsession with Kubo he wasn't their slave. Kubo just stringed them along with story. This arc was going nowhere fast and every fight was a back and forth of "I got you, no I got you, ha I actually got you."
So again your own personal opinion is more important then all the buyers in Japan. Sorry popular opinion states that they the buying public like those series more then Bleach. They are not mediocre you just don't like the series Japan does. That is called opinion not fact so stop acting like your opinion is fact.
Seriously what story what story could he possibly tell. At least there was some build up to this arc. The one arc that was completely pulled from his ass was the Fullbringer arc and it is considered by the majority to be a terrible arc.
Well your Rukia user icon for one says you like "shounen crap" and second your absolute fanaticism with defending Kubo like he is so innocent in this. The man was clearly stringing the story along to milk it. Look at all the fights they were all multiple chapters long with constant back and forth of good guy looks defeated then turns it around and the bad guy looks defeated. Yet that turned out to be all a ruse and in fact the bad guy was holding a trump card all along until in fact the good guy was holding on to their trump card attack for that exact moment where they defeat the bad guy. Unless of course the bad guy knew about that trump card and had an even bigger trump card and defeats said good guy and then another good guy steps in with an even bigger trump card to finally win the fight. Look even if I were to believe all this demonizing of Shueisha they are a business not a charity. Kubo has not delivered in years and has become a mid tier mangaka at best. They want to move on and open the spot to new mangakas and that is their right. They don't owe a damn thing to Kubo and through all his stringing along the story rightfully deserves to get a kick in the ass to finish the damn story. [/quote] |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Top Gun
Posts: 4576 |
|
|||||||
And even then it's just the character art, since as Monster Hunter noted his backgrounds barely exist most of the time. I still chuckle at that one old meme image that shows these two-page spreads of Naruto standing atop the Hidden Leaf Village, and the first glimpse of the ruined city of Shandora in One PIece, and they're these crazy-detailed intricate pieces of art...and then there's a similar panorama of Hueco Mundo, and it's a page's worth of solid black fill with a few white featureless buildings on it. And it's not like it's a cherry-picked image or anything too, since the Soul Society is almost entirely made up of featureless rectangular buildings; the running joke among my friends was that they only exist to get destroyed during fights and give the Soul Society construction crew work to do afterwards. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group