Forum - View topicAnswerman - Why Is It Socially Unacceptable To Be An Otaku In Japan? (Revisited)
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Arsenette
 Posts: 175 |
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To this day I'm still told never to identify as "otaku" in Japan by Japanese friends who are all younger than I am (I'm in my 40's). They really don't understand why the West is trying to glorify it and it still carries a really bad stigma. They go out of their way to explain how I am not one and to stay clear of the ones that are. Pretty damning considering that the advice is still being pushed as recently as last year.
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EricJ2
 Posts: 4016 |
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Shock them with the truth about "crazy" Americans (what've you got to lose, they think we're crazy enough anyway): In America, you can watch any darn cartoon you want to, and people not only will know exactly what you're talking about and won't consider you weird--unless you're a Brony--they maybe actually respect you for it as cool. If you don't believe me, just try shooting a classic Chuck Jones quote into a conversation in public. Would you like to shoot one now, or wait till you get home? (Shoot it now, shoot it now!) 
Even an average Hanna-Barbera or Flintstones quote will often get mass cultural recognition in US context--It might not necessarily work as well with another person in Sweden, for example, unless he was Ole and you were Sven. Over here, it was only Cartoon Network that ever expressed the Japanese view of, and I QUOTE, "Would you believe there are some people who want to watch the same shows they saw as kids?...Scary, huh?" Almost twenty years ago, and the entire cable audience has never forgiven them for it since. |
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Lord Oink
Posts: 876 |
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None of those were 'huge' like Sailor Moon or the other shows in Japan, and Im talking actual shoujo for girls, not shounen stuff women also like. There's a serious dearth of actual girl oriented anime in America, and fewer were actually successful. There is just no market for it here. Girls here are into Disney tweencoms, or regular sitcoms when they get older.
Because westerners use otaku as if it means just 'anime fan'. Liking anime and being an otaku are different.
Is this post satire?  The dude at my old job who talked about Avatar and Adventure Time resulted in people called him a weirdo and creep behind his back for watching kids cartoons at 27. There's a reason you're told to hide your power level in public, and that is exactly it. A world where women think you're cool because of your love for Jimmy Neutron does sounds pretty funny, though.
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mangamuscle
Posts: 2658 Location: Mexico |
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Don't forget that the original Sailor Moon anime had shonen style character designs, fights and a MOTW plotline; so even though it obviously had shoujo elements I would not call it "shoujo for girls" or "by girls for girls". |
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EricJ2
Posts: 4016 |
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Yeah, guess the phenomenon only exists in respect to classic Boomer-era pre-cable cartoons, which require a lifetime of experience--Andy Kaufman would never have gotten laughs on SNL lip-synching to the Adventure Time theme. Not only will quoting 90's-10's cable-network cartoons in public get utter baffled responses ("Aw, c'mon, it's from Gravity Falls, whaddya mean you don't watch?"), but you will look weird for it, because, if you have a love for the Regular Show or Rick & Morty, consider that you pretty much ARE. Hence the Brony disclaimer. But then, cable-network cartoons are largely the reason most of us who can quote classic pre-cable cartoons started watching anime in the first place. No, sorry, make that "Fled, screaming, to anime in the first place", and thus created the social marginalization of cable fans who watched the "other" shows on Toonami, and the need for those who were fans to hug each other and claim no one understood their passion. The Boomer-toon fans were mainstream, the cable fans were "oddballs", and that's the same problem with the perceptions of 80's-90's mainstream anime vs. 10's otaku-era anime. And why those with shorter memories confuse the two. |
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BadNewsBlues
Posts: 5925 |
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I'd be curious if that affect it's ability of getting over here given the continued longevity of Transformers......and Ben 10.
Supposedly Yokai-Watch is starting to lose steam in Japan. |
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Sakagami Tomoyo
 Posts: 940 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia |
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All your examples there are old examples. That's not people recognising and being cool with whatever you watch, that's shared nostalgia. Do the same with any current kid's cartoons, and people will look at you funny. If you've got young children that you watch it with and it grows on you, that's somewhat more acceptable, but only if they A) know that's why you like it, and B) they're in much the same situation. |
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leafy sea dragon
 Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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Animation Age Ghetto still running strong? I don't really see it quite as pronounced as you do, but I guess me living in close proximity to Hollywood, Burbank, and Glendale causes a lot more acceptance of adults being into cartoons. I went to go watch Captain Underpants: The First Epic Movie a couple of days ago by myself, and nobody considered it unusual in the least. Heck, every time I go to a movie theater to watch an animated film aimed at kids, and it's within three weeks of its release, there are always at least a dozen adults who come into the theater with no kids. And with TV shows, everybody I talk to seems to be watching at least one cartoon with a TV-PG rating or lower or has watched one in the past 5 years. If the Ghetto hasn't been torn down locally, the barriers are rapidly crumbling. |
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H. Guderian
Posts: 1255 |
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Hey thanks for the follow up.
There are literally bookloads on the subject and not so many translated into english, so unless you're frequently doing Otaku cultural studies, it can be easy to miss. Another tidbit of trivia, fujoshi events aren't new. Comiket was originally a doujin event for their series, though the creators at that time were primarily male so while they drew for the early fujoshi audience, once they added in what they liked the event quickly tipped over into what could be seen to be much less catering to them, but now its wheeling back to where it started out. Its a very deep subject, heck I have several books on my shelf on the topic I haven't read apart form the ones I did read, and make a habit to try and convey at least some of the knowledge into panels at local cons. I'm not very good at it, but I think the subject is hugely interesting. |
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EricJ2
Posts: 4016 |
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(Except in Japan, of course, where you risk a judo-chop-chop...) 
(Just in case the mods pulled the earlier post: ) Yeah, maybe I was generalizing too much with the Boomer examples, but just trying to illustrate the average Americans' lack of fear about looking different/creative: The reason the "old" examples worked is that there is no shame in admitting you grew up with the same pop-culture as the rest of your generation--No matter where you go, you're probably going to find someone else who did. If you came home from school during the same general era, or even watched shows on the same Saturday-morning network, you probably watched the exact same Looney and H-B cartoons, and pop cult-references just entered our general language through sheer saturation. We joke about it either because we liked it, or because we knew we couldn't escape it. When we get commercials today where the DiC-dubbed Sailor Moon characters sell Ford SUV's, it's not exactly saying that if you watched the old 90's afternoon show, it was some kind of weird isolated experience for you... That's what current cult-cable DOESN'T have: A niche cable series that tries to foster a cult of personality by being odd and extreme to a certain kind of odd and extreme viewer gets a "cult" viewership on one corporate cable-network channel and nowhere else, but the dictionary definition of "cult" is that it's a group of people locked away to themselves from everyone else. The rest of the world isn't watching. Express an interest in that--in the "loyal" cult following that the show and its network parents have tried to foster for ratings--and yes, you'll look weird. Even worse, you might face the same demonization from more mainstream fans who watch, or were raised on watching, quote, "real" cartoons: "Eww, your avatar...You actually WATCH My Little Pony?" That's the same current problem with the current generation of Japanese perception of anime. Sailor Moon can get a 20th anniversary, but ask whatever happened to the old afternoon-TV days of Ranma, Gundam and Tenchi, they may not call you an "unemployed pervert", but they'll ask why you're talking about their parents' show from 20 years ago, or think you're trying to "relive your childhood". (We used to have the same problem on our Urusei Yatsura group when the last AnimEigo DVD's were coming out over here in the early 00's--Japanese posters would ask "That was from the 80's, why are you talking about this?") What they see now in otaku-era anime are fanservice shows trying to service niche-cults of otaku interests, and believe that if that's "anime", then watching it must probably make you "weird", and you're tuning in to watch the idols and twin-tails. That's probably why the one earlier poster got the experience of Japan's confusion with why normal Americans would be comfortable about liking old anime, but warning them not to be one of "Those" otaku that they have today. |
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Juno016
 Posts: 2387 |
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It's definitely going to depend on who you speak to and the area you're in. "Otaku" got semi-positive recognition with things like Densha Otoko and such, but not everyone smoothly transitions with society. In my personal experience, liking anime is actually pretty normal. Liking lots of anime and being a big fan is less normal, but people will nod and accept it now more than ever. Calling yourself an "otaku" doesn't garner as much negativity as it used to, but much like "geek" in the West (albeit to a slightly bigger extent), you're still going to see negative press. In 2015, I remember watching some news about a serial stalker being caught and the news itself used "otaku" in a negative fashion, despite no evidence that the guy was into anything other than female idols. Not to mention, the maid story I just told. That said, I had a group of friends who called themselves "otaku" proudly in Japan. They were close-nit, but yeah. Oh, and for those Westerners (who aren't Asian-decended) who are curious how people treat Westerners who call themselves "otaku", I've noticed there is some bewilderment to using the word so actively and proudly, but if you try to deny it and yet your interests come up, chances are, they'll label you as "otaku" and think it's cool. On the flip side, there is a growing stereotype of the foreigner who is obsessed over anime. Some Japanese are annoyed and some Japanese are actually happy to see the interest. I don't think there are numbers to show the extent of positivity or negativity it has reached, but if you show your hobbies off, you're likely to receive a fair mix of both. |
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sputn1k
Posts: 52 |
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One also has to point out that the term isn't limited to fans of pop culture things like anime, manga, etc.
It's broadly applied to anyone who dedicates a lot of time, money, and effort to their hobby, on a level beyond that a non-fan could imagine for themselves. The term is also applied to people who: - collect memorabilia of any kind - are overly into sports (as amateurs, not professionals), e.g. cycling, bodybuilding, long distance running, mountaineering, etc.) - sports fans - audiophiles - car enthusiasts - people who walk around woods with metal detectors trying to find artifacts - people pursuing certain academic ventures on an amateur level (think of people scouring woods with metal detectors trying to find archaeological artifacts, etc.) - many more things Effectively a very large percentage of people has something they do at a level they quality to be an otaku, but usually keep quiet about it. If an "antisocial tendency" is detected by others, the stigma applied is actually the same as for the pop culture otaku. |
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ice_tea
Posts: 74 |
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There are also idol otaku in Japan. AKB and the likes, and even stuff like Love Live are made for them. See how nowadays voice actresses are treated and marketed like idols. I guess that's what a part of the Japanese male otaku market want... |
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mangamuscle
Posts: 2658 Location: Mexico |
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Now that would be a an interesting survey for ANN "Do you have to hide your power level?", I suppose they can identify everyone’s state by i.p. and a simple yes/no would suffice. Would answers line up with red/blue boundaries? cities vs. rural? or maybe there are some unforgiving cities and accepting rural zones? |
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Jose Cruz
 Posts: 1773 Location: South America |
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I know this is an old thread but I only noticed it now and I think that the social stigma against otaku in Japan is due to it's peripheral position in the world's power structure. What I mean by that is that it's considered ok in Japan to be obsessed with Western cultural mediums such as film and literature (or western sports like baseball and golf), but nobody should dare to be obsessed with typically Japanese cultural mediums of manga and animation. That's because the Japanese have a huge inferiority complex regarding their culture vis the Western civilization (as Miyazaki has explained in Turning Point). So the real Japanese culture (and nothing is more Japanese than stuff like Madoka and Love Live: there is absolutely nothing in the West like it) gets driven into underground while Japan tries to present a westernized face to the West to to themselves. In the book Moe Manifesto a Japanese anthropologist explains that same argument in detail.
I believe the change in cultural perceptions is also due to the rise of China as the world's foremost economic power and the rise of the rest of Asia as well. Since those are not western cultures like Japan, it's showing to Japan: look, being non-western can be "cool" too. So the Japanese themselves are allowing themselves to enjoy their own cultural mediums more openly now thanks to the fact we are living in an increasingly post-Eurocentric world. While the social stigma in the West against videogames is due to perhaps the fact it's young people's stuff and older people always have a stigma against stuff they don't know. Now that gamers are becoming older so is the social stigma collapsing. I think that's also true for videogames/manga/animation in Japan but complemented with the cultural inferiority complex. Finally, the term "otaku" is also problematic since scholars don't agree with a precise definition. To psychiatrist Tamaki Saito, an otaku is defined as a person that can achieve orgasm by watching anime. That's a different definition from what mainstream society puts on the word "otaku". |
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