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EP. REVIEW: Is It Wrong to Try to Pick Up Girls in a Dungeon? II


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Key
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:07 am Reply with quote
Tanteikingdomkey wrote:
Does anyone else not see a huge problem with this? Dan machi can get dark and do it will just look at lily. You know what just compare and contrast everything about lily and haruhime. You will immediately start to understand why this arc is terrible and should have just been skipped over in the anime really.

Regardless of what you think of the arc, it absolutely can't be skipped over for a number of practical reasons if any intention to adapt further franchise content exists. There are at least three characters introduced in this arc who become either core, guest star, or regularly-recurring characters for either or both of the main series or Sword Oratoria, and the circumstances of what's going to be shown next episode as going on between Ishtar and Freya Familias will have significant secondary impacts on various upcoming events that can't be easily ignored.

As for the Lily/Haruhime situation, their circumstances are utterly different, with the only real similarity being them both being regarded as sacrificial tools (albeit in utterly different ways). Because of that, I definitely don't "immediately understand why this arc is terrible."
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Tanteikingdomkey
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:31 pm Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
WHY you ask, the answer is plainly that it does exist. Just because it is in a D&D RPG setting doesn't mean this isn't part of the world too.
Depictions of rape and non-consensual stuff is only a landmine in the west.
The author is not saying sex is bad. He is merely showing it as part of his world, as it is in our world. The world depicted in DanMachi is not a Disney world, or a sanitized ("think of the kids") western cartoon.
Considering all the sex written out in the Greek and Roman mythology, it would make it seem natural to be part of the world of DanMachi.

See that's the problem with dan machi and sex because it really does not line up at all.

I completely agree that the greek mythology might as well be a soap opera with EVEN more sex thrown in the mix and a strong dose of fantasy. I could very easily see a good sex comedy comedy or something like domestic girlfriend with the greek gods.....

And yet dan machi is REALLY SANITIZED and goes really out of it's way to avoid that and keeps the fan service tame. the show could totally pull a fire force and as you said it would make perfect sense and yet it doesn't really even give aiz anyone to compete against in bells eyes instead of going full harem/SAO which would make perfect sense.
Hestia is always soon to love and care for bell but she's written more like a single mother then an actual romantic love interest. She acts like she has already lost to aiz and is just waiting to finally marry him off to her.
Lily is constantly shown to be watching over bell like an older sister waiting for him to be taken advantage of and that she needs to protect him from himself. bell acts like he can't even see that she has some series feelings for him, meanwhile lily is just playing coy almost and not being actually direct with him.
Haruhime meanwhile has a shared interest with bell and sees herself as only being human thanks to him more or less, but she is never going to put herself first and actually make the next steps for that same reason.

AND THEN WE HAVE AIZ, one of the strongest explorers in the series who see potential in bell and wants to see him grow, but is one of the most deadpan and almost aisexual anime heroines I could think of, especially for a "Main Love Interest". The most sexual thing the series has done is have these characters do a one minute waltz with each other. I mean maybe at one point you had them fall on top of each other 4 books ago but really that is it!

The fan service itself we do get is characters is characters go to a hot spring type content which is really tame and common now a days.
I mean compare dan machi S1 to shows this season
arifueta, fire force, cheat magician, DL retry, mom isekai, astra, dumbell, magic senpai, hensuki, are you lost, copcraft, oh maidens, ones within, accelerator, yuno, given, grabelm, symptho gear, ensamble stars
heck even fruits basket has more fan service then dan machi I would argue. The point is for a series that has greek gods walking around it WAS falling really hard onto the 10+ anime pile when compared to other series that are currently airing.

Almost all of the series fan service is really clean for anime and is easily hand waved away as just being part of a characters expressive-ness hestia being very bouncy, energetic, and impulsive. She constantly get the best character animation and the most amount of frames of animation. I would argue that constantly having her boobs not keeping up with her jerky and snappy movements just emphasizes how different she is in that way compared to everyone else. She is the only character I can think of who actually gets normal jiggle physics in the whole show just to constantly emphasize that she is unique and snappy compared to everyone else. I mean you never see that with lily, haruhime, and definitely not with aiz

Next lets bring up the by this point fact that only antagonistic people in this show are shown to have any interest in sex. Hestia is a literal god with virgin worship, Bell freaks out and runs away from any reference to sex, Lily is never shown to show sexual interest, Haruhime PASSES OUT from looking at a guy in a low crop V neck, wolf I commonly see get made gay jokes made about because of his lack of female interest. AIZ is the definition of a lawful good paladin..... So at best you might have the waitresses or the quest lady be shown to take a sexual interest maybe.....

SO you have greek and other gods running around and at best the only ones who are shown to be sexually active are evil and used sex as a weapon. meanwhile all the "good god" are shown as abstinent or cry themselves to sleep and regret that the GOD OF SEX SLEPT WITH THEM.

So that is why the execution of going HEY lets make an arc about sex slaves, prostitutes, and rape breaks dan machis tone and why the author admits that he shouldn't have made a story in dan machis world about them directly.

WHAT you could have done is what they just did in arc 5 and just imply that maybe appolo wants bell is some sexual manner, or that he has some sort of kink but just gloss over it and instead make that not important to the story. Or just have wolf mention that he went to a brotheal recently or try and make bell go to one (but of course he would fail). That would do a much better job of showing they exist, without drawing attention to the fact that all the "good guys" are all hestias virginal servants and no good guy in this show sexual interest.

Key i'll get to your question next
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killjoy_the



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:09 am Reply with quote
^

It's Welf, not wolf. He's not very interested in sex for reasons that could be explained in the adaptation of volume 8
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TarsTarkas



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:39 am Reply with quote
@Tanteikingdomkey

Really don't see that at all. Personally, I think you are just reading too much into the show. But, each to their own.
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Nordhmmer



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:54 am Reply with quote
killjoy_the wrote:
^

It's Welf, not wolf. He's not very interested in sex for reasons that could be explained in the adaptation of volume 8


Welf is very interested in sex,and that interest is explained not just in vol 8 Smile
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steelmirror



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:07 pm Reply with quote
Tanteikingdomkey wrote:
See that's the problem with dan machi and sex because it really does not line up at all.
For all that I've typed waaay too much about how adolescent this show is about the actual act of sex, we shouldn't forget that the show itself is fundamentally horny as heck, and always has been.

Hestia is not a popular character and mascot of the show because of her deep character exploration. It's because of her clingly short dress and impossible boob ribbon. Aiz has a stupid half-breastplate which emphasizes her figure while protecting less of her body because...well because the character designer is an evil genius. The amazons' traditional garb is inspired by true mythological sources I'm sure.
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NeverConvex



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:40 pm Reply with quote
steelmirror wrote:
Hestia is not a popular character and mascot of the show because of her deep character exploration


Never have words on this forum wounded me more acutely.
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Tanteikingdomkey
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:57 pm Reply with quote
steelmirror wrote:
Tanteikingdomkey wrote:
See that's the problem with dan machi and sex because it really does not line up at all.
For all that I've typed waaay too much about how adolescent this show is about the actual act of sex, we shouldn't forget that the show itself is fundamentally horny as heck, and always has been.

Hestia is not a popular character and mascot of the show because of her deep character exploration. It's because of her clingly short dress and impossible boob ribbon. Aiz has a stupid half-breastplate which emphasizes her figure while protecting less of her body because...well because the character designer is an evil genius. The amazons' traditional garb is inspired by true mythological sources I'm sure.


Oh yes Dan machi absolutely can be horny. But lets make one thing clear it is not playboy it is Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition. It is still horny but they are very restrained and vanilla.

The character designs are absolutely genius I actually do agree with that. they are once again generic but they do have stupid/genius little touches that do make them unique and recognizable.

I still maintain that the reason hestia is actually a stand out character though is more then just her character design. Most memes/seasonal girls DIE hard once the trend has moved on. and while people have stopped meming the ribbon (as much as a meme can die), she has actually stuck around in the community as a popular charcter that is accepted as great wifu choice like holo, rem, persona girls, dragon maid.

I think that is because she actually has the entire package. The character animation for her is actually as close to perfect as possible. she is incredibly loyal and devoted to bell. she is energetic and knows what she wants and is enthusiastic. But she is also lazy and can not think things through fully and when combined with her aggressiveness it actually makes her come across as extremely approachable. which let me remind you she is a goddess who actually feels like a normal human just dealing with &^(_)#. That is actually quite impressive considering she could have easily ended up in the same spot as aqua but instead feels legitimately important, strong, and useful to her friends.
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GhostD



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:20 pm Reply with quote
That was a fairly satisfying and emotional end to the Haruhime arc. More so than the war game at least. It would be a nice touch if JC showed her with the rest of the familia in both the opening and ending credits instead of her as a prisoner.
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Key
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:26 pm Reply with quote
Episode 10:
For anime-only viewers, this episode left out the justification for why Ottarl stopped to heal Mikoto, though admittedly, the way the episode paced itself didn't leave time for that. In the original novel, spoiler[ Ottarl and his crew found Mikoto and he realized, based on her injuries, what she must have done to end up badly injured the way she was. While the others in his team went on, not caring to get involved, he stopped and partly healed her because he respected her tenacity.]

Also, the scene that could've been the arc's most controversial was left out at the end. We'll see if it gets tagged in at the beginning of next episode, but I won't be disappointed if it really has been left out even if it would make the "collarbone" scene more incongruous.

And yep, based on the Next Episode title, it looks like they really are going to do at least a bit with volume 8. With only two (maybe 3?) episodes left, they definitely can't do the whole 8th novel, so I'm very curious to see how they decide to handle it. Only do the spoiler[Hestia gets kidnapped] story, maybe?
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GhostD



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:44 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
Episode 10:
For anime-only viewers, this episode left out the justification for why Ottarl stopped to heal Mikoto, though admittedly, the way the episode paced itself didn't leave time for that. In the original novel, spoiler[ Ottarl and his crew found Mikoto and he realized, based on her injuries, what she must have done to end up badly injured the way she was. While the others in his team went on, not caring to get involved, he stopped and partly healed her because he respected her tenacity.]

Also, the scene that could've been the arc's most controversial was left out at the end. We'll see if it gets tagged in at the beginning of next episode, but I won't be disappointed if it really has been left out even if it would make the "collarbone" scene more incongruous.

And yep, based on the Next Episode title, it looks like they really are going to do at least a bit with volume 8. With only two (maybe 3?) episodes left, they definitely can't do the whole 8th novel, so I'm very curious to see how they decide to handle it. Only do the spoiler[Hestia gets kidnapped] story, maybe?


And here was me trying not to mention any of that particularly the controversial bit though I have a feeling its going to be mentioned next ep since that should be when spoiler[Haruhime joins the Hestia familia.]
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TarsTarkas



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:18 pm Reply with quote
Now I am going to have to reread the LN to see what you all are dancing over.
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steelmirror



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:47 am Reply with quote
So in the end, I've already covered my feelings on this arc ad nauseam. I don't need to beat a dead horse, except to sum it up by saying that I really wish I could enjoy a whole shonen anime one of these days that doesn't delve into outright sexual assault.

My favorite part of ep 10 was Freya bringing an end to rapeface McEvilGoddess' reign of terror by slapping her evil ass off the top of a tower. That was satisfying.

Tanteikingdomkey wrote:
I still maintain that the reason hestia is actually a stand out character though is more then just her character design.

I think that is because she actually has the entire package.
See my only issue with this line of discussion is that you are talking as though Ryuu isn't objectively the Best Girl. Razz
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Nordhmmer



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:23 am Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
Now I am going to have to reread the LN to see what you all are dancing over.


It's just about spoiler[Aisha telling Bell,after their fight, that Haruhime is still a virgin,what with Haruhime's fainting spells.]- that's controversial to some folks.
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What irks me a bit is the over arcing plot having been pretty cut out so far. It does have a bearing on vol 9 and beyond.
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Quote:
With only two (maybe 3?) episodes left, they definitely can't do the whole 8th novel, so I'm very curious to see how they decide to handle it


I can see the anime adapting vol 8 in two episodes....
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Gina Szanboti



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:33 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
As it stands, the effort to show how much more powerful Freya is than Ishtar doesn't do much to explain why the Norse goddess trumps the Babylonian one

And I really wish they would have. "Elegance" doesn't cut it as an explanation. As it stands in the anime, I couldn't help but feel a bit of racism (and underlying sexist attitudes toward women and sexuality) in the portrayals. Two love goddesses facing off, with the Middle Eastern one coming across as earthy, untamed, bestial, while the Nordic one is civilized, every hair in place, and "elegant." And elegance wins, just because, I guess. A woman must always be a lady, even if she runs around half-naked. (dunno about Ishtar's scarf, but Freya is clearly using butt glue)

To be fair, Freya was a bit of a prude, despite what Loki accused her of in the Lokasenna. Laughing
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