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The List - 5 Best Boys-Love Anime


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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:34 am Reply with quote
SailorTralfamadore wrote:
As for the obscured kiss, I don't have the links right now but Yamamoto has basically stated that she had to fight really hard to keep that scene in the episode, so the obscured version is probably all that they allowed her to do. And I think the fact that she fought so hard against homophobic broadcast standards deserves a different reception than the deliberate bait-and-switch pulled by something like Sound! Euphonium.


Agreed. The fighting so hard for it is worth praise, but you also have to admit that the censorship standards have an effect, and it I think it is that which makes the difference in whether you can in true earnest count it among the BL genre. Most true BL anime don't bother with meeting the censorship standards, and is unapologetic. It is true that in other ways it is incredibly specific in signs of what their relationship is, but they themselves kind of are code. Mostly stuff that is full on understood, but there is still that little.

I have a similar thought on Legend of Korra, which ended with a lesbian pairing, which from what I understand the creators had to fight hard for, and still they were not able to show a kiss. Many people needed the confirmation of what it was, despite that you could see very heavy leanings where the end scene has them echoing the positions of a straight couple from earlier, and very much also like the ending of The Last Airbender, which finished with a straight couple kiss. It was not ideal, because a lot of cases of needing creator confirmation. But I also think that it has stood to allow more explicit depictions (not perverted) of homosexual couples in even children's cartoons.

I watched every season of Free waiting to see if there would be any confirmation of boys liking boys, after all the long stairs that focus on their bodies and stuff. But it just feels like it is making the audience out as silly fujoshi, assigning husbands. At least something like Yuru Yuri pretty much has it in the title, and despite the teasing several characters openly fantasise with other girls.
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BlueOla



Joined: 08 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:55 pm Reply with quote
SailorTralfamadore wrote:


As for the obscured kiss, I don't have the links right now but Yamamoto has basically stated that she had to fight really hard to keep that scene in the episode, so the obscured version is probably all that they allowed her to do. And I think the fact that she fought so hard against homophobic broadcast standards deserves a different reception.


Gosh can we please STOP propagating this myth that there are laws preventing anime from showing gay kisses? There aren't, watch any BL anime that aired on TV, clearly that's not a problem, and Yoi aired in the late night (2 am?) slot anyway. It has nothing to do with "broadcasting standards". It's just that it was an original anime and the production committee was greedy and they didn't want to allow the creators to show something that could potentially drive away normie audiences because more people watching obviously means more ¥¥¥ and they were afraid of losing that extra revenue.

Let's just be honest about it - Sayo really did her best but she was stopped by people higher in the hierarchy, that's all, you don't need to invent nonexistent "broadcasting standards", just tell it how it is.
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Rentwo



Joined: 05 Oct 2019
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:52 pm Reply with quote
BlueOla wrote:
Gosh can we please STOP propagating this myth that there are laws preventing anime from showing gay kisses? There aren't, watch any BL anime that aired on TV, clearly that's not a problem, and Yoi aired in the late night (2 am?) slot anyway. It has nothing to do with "broadcasting standards". It's just that it was an original anime and the production committee was greedy and they didn't want to allow the creators to show something that could potentially drive away normie audiences because more people watching obviously means more ¥¥¥ and they were afraid of losing that extra revenue.

Let's just be honest about it - Sayo really did her best but she was stopped by people higher in the hierarchy, that's all, you don't need to invent nonexistent "broadcasting standards", just tell it how it is.


Is there an actual link to this interview Sayo Yamamoto comments on about being censored or is it something that's always taken as truth and nobody is ever able to track down the original interview? It is also possible if she did in fact say it that she was misquoted and meant a specific time-slot on a specific network had different regulations, since it's not an actual country wide standard to my knowledge as you say and same sex kisses are in a lot of anime already.
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kazenoyume



Joined: 18 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:27 pm Reply with quote
Rentwo wrote:

Is there an actual link to this interview Sayo Yamamoto comments on about being censored or is it something that's always taken as truth and nobody is ever able to track down the original interview? It is also possible if she did in fact say it that she was misquoted and meant a specific time-slot on a specific network had different regulations, since it's not an actual country wide standard to my knowledge as you say and same sex kisses are in a lot of anime already.


The Go Yuri Go fanbook, released in June 2017. Talking about the kiss scene:

Truthfully every side wanted to completely stop this at many points, but this was an episode I forced my way through. I had confidence that they would understand once they saw the completed work.

Nothing specifically about the arm, but about getting the kiss in period. Btw, the people who this would probably involve would be Avex and TV Asahi, who were higher on the production committee than Mappa, so they are who she would have to fight. Just because it's not broadcast standards doesn't mean it's not censorship. If she tried to get it in and they (the tv station airing it and Avex) were fighting her, that's censorship.

The reason some other anime have had uncensored m/m kisses has a lot to do with context. If something is BL and is marketed as such, of course it's going to be allowed. If the kiss is a gag or a joke, it will be allowed. If it's a pair of side characters? Same. And YOI didn't even have the excuse of 'it was in the original material' (like No. 6 did), so of course it was going to be much harder to get through. And... that's still censorship, or at least an attempt at it.

There are a few other comments that allude to similar things, from Sayo and also from producer Manabu Otsuka. I know Otsuka talked multiple times about being worried about the reaction to the series, and knowing that a specific subset of people were going to be upset about it. Context made it pretty clear exactly the kind of people he was talking about.

Here's one from Anime Midwest 2017 where he says Sayo wanted to create a romance (he used 恋愛 btw, a word that indisputably cannot mean anything but romantic love), but other studios would not accept that.



Anime writers, directors, and producers are notoriously cagey about stuff like this, because they don't want to say something they shouldn't about their employers and lose their job. A female director like Sayo would probably be especially concerned about this, but even then, she's made it known she had to push for the kiss as it was AND the romance period. Sayo had an idea and stuck to her guns, refusing to compromise, and I really admire her for that. Making a skating anime was her dream project, and she refused to alter the story she wanted to tell just to get it approved.
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CrowLia



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:00 pm Reply with quote
Rentwo wrote:

Is there an actual link to this interview Sayo Yamamoto comments on about being censored or is it something that's always taken as truth and nobody is ever able to track down the original interview? It is also possible if she did in fact say it that she was misquoted and meant a specific time-slot on a specific network had different regulations, since it's not an actual country wide standard to my knowledge as you say and same sex kisses are in a lot of anime already.


I don't have a link because the interview is not from digital media but from the GO Yuri GO official fanbook (page 62), and no, it isn't a misconstruction, or mistranslation, she explicitly says, talking about episode 7 "the scene after [Yuuri's] free skate" that "I was stopped many times along the way, but since this was an indispensable episode for me, I pushed forward with all my might and included it anyway" (loose translation)

ETA: oops, ninja'd
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Rentwo



Joined: 05 Oct 2019
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:21 am Reply with quote
kazenoyume wrote:

The Go Yuri Go fanbook, released in June 2017. Talking about the kiss scene:

Truthfully every side wanted to completely stop this at many points, but this was an episode I forced my way through. I had confidence that they would understand once they saw the completed work.

Nothing specifically about the arm, but about getting the kiss in period. Btw, the people who this would probably involve would be Avex and TV Asahi, who were higher on the production committee than Mappa, so they are who she would have to fight. Just because it's not broadcast standards doesn't mean it's not censorship. If she tried to get it in and they (the tv station airing it and Avex) were fighting her, that's censorship.

The reason some other anime have had uncensored m/m kisses has a lot to do with context. If something is BL and is marketed as such, of course it's going to be allowed. If the kiss is a gag or a joke, it will be allowed. If it's a pair of side characters? Same. And YOI didn't even have the excuse of 'it was in the original material' (like No. 6 did), so of course it was going to be much harder to get through. And... that's still censorship, or at least an attempt at it.

There are a few other comments that allude to similar things, from Sayo and also from producer Manabu Otsuka. I know Otsuka talked multiple times about being worried about the reaction to the series, and knowing that a specific subset of people were going to be upset about it. Context made it pretty clear exactly the kind of people he was talking about.

Here's one from Anime Midwest 2017 where he says Sayo wanted to create a romance (he used 恋愛 btw, a word that indisputably cannot mean anything but romantic love), but other studios would not accept that.

Anime writers, directors, and producers are notoriously cagey about stuff like this, because they don't want to say something they shouldn't about their employers and lose their job. A female director like Sayo would probably be especially concerned about this, but even then, she's made it known she had to push for the kiss as it was AND the romance period. Sayo had an idea and stuck to her guns, refusing to compromise, and I really admire her for that. Making a skating anime was her dream project, and she refused to alter the story she wanted to tell just to get it approved.


Thank you. That changes the entire discussion considerably if it had nothing to do with same sex kisses not being allowed on TV just a specific instance of production committees not wanting certain content in their shows. Now I'm getting a better idea of what happened.

I agree that is most likely the reason. A sports anime aimed at a more general, inclusive audience would want to avoid anything controversial to reach as many people as possible. I can see the possible scenario where sponsors, executives, and production committees signed on for a sports anime, and when they saw homosexual content they got nervous because it would limit the audience appeal of the show and they wouldn't make as much return for their investment. Them pushing for avoiding anything overt allows for plausible deniability in that area. It also puts into question some other stuff in the series. Like the first episode where Yuri reunites with Yuko and comments how she's still cute and they play around with the angle that he had unrequited feelings for her. Was that the creator's original vision or was it the committee pushing in a more traditional trope for the main character.

Given YoI's huge success it's a bit hard to really say the higher ups were wrong. We'lll never know if the show would have been just as successful if she had full creative control to put as much gay content as she wants, but we do know the show we got was extremely successful.
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CrowLia



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:32 am Reply with quote
Rentwo wrote:
We'lll never know if the show would have been just as successful if she had full creative control to put as much gay content as she wants, but we do know the show we got was extremely successful.


Oh give me a break. It was well documented that the massive spike in preorders for YOI's home video release happened exactly after episode 7 aired in Japan. The day episode 12 aired, "Wedding on Ice" trended worldwide. The backlash against censoring Victor and Yuuri's rings in a few magazines has caused publishers to backtrack and have artists re-add the rings afterwards. To think that the depiction and development of Yuuri and Victor's relationship wasn't a crutial part of the show's massive success is as disingenuous as the earlier claim about their relationship not being "explicit"
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:21 am Reply with quote
If it was explicitly clear, then why would it have mattered if the rings were "censored". My debate is not that the depiction of Yuuri and Victor is not a great part of the show, being outside of things like fetishization, but the majority of fetishized shows of the BL genre, have some very clear things that Yuri on Ice lacked. And those interviews do seem to show that not everyone was on the same board.

There was a video I was watching earlier that was on the topic of whether there are or will be any LGBT characters in the MCU. One specific example being the already introduced Valkyrie, who is apparently bi in comics, and I think her actress said that she is. But general writers or directors are very coy if there are any or will be, and seems that reasons are admitted LGBT characters would probably get their movies banned in China. Deadpool 2 apparently managed to have a queer couple because it would be banned anyway from its violence.

And I think we need to just maybe say in terms of BL, simply having a gay relationship, even the main relationship being such, doesn't mean it is BL. Or, stepping into controversial topic of if Avatar is anime, The Legend of Korra is a yuri anime (although clearly it has a lot more stuff). Yes YoI is even more so about the gay couple, but you could read the same with Amanchu, that had an entire episode of one of them trying to stop anyone else from kissing her "friend".
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wolf10



Joined: 23 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:52 am Reply with quote
kazenoyume wrote:
Btw, the people who this would probably involve would be Avex and TV Asahi, who were higher on the production committee than Mappa, so they are who she would have to fight. Just because it's not broadcast standards doesn't mean it's not censorship. If she tried to get it in and they (the tv station airing it and Avex) were fighting her, that's censorship.
Since there seems to be some fundamental misunderstanding in this thread, that's actually what "broadcast standards" literally means. The standards set by the broadcaster. Aside from individual countries obscenity laws, most of what goes on the air is regulated entirely by what the channel decides for themselves is acceptable, not by law. "Will people make an issue out of this?" is the question TV stations have to keep asking themselves, and the only officiating court is the court of public opinion.
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Super_M



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:37 am Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:

And I think we need to just maybe say in terms of BL, simply having a gay relationship, even the main relationship being such, doesn't mean it is BL. Or, stepping into controversial topic of if Avatar is anime, The Legend of Korra is a yuri anime (although clearly it has a lot more stuff). Yes YoI is even more so about the gay couple, but you could read the same with Amanchu, that had an entire episode of one of them trying to stop anyone else from kissing her "friend".

Everyone has more or less diffrent definition what BL is. For me BL is male x male romance targeted for women/girls audience ,YoI targeted more women than men and Victor and Yuri were very gay for each other. So I understand people who say YoI is BL, and understand people who say YoI isn't BL becouse officialy YoI is orginal sport anime and lack typical BL settings and ciches.
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Zac
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:59 am Reply with quote
I think it's a little easy to get lost in the weeds on trying to make exact, specific definitions of these terms and then attempt to police everyone on the internet about what they're supposed to mean.

Yuri on Ice is chiefly about two things: two men who fall in love, and ice skating. I call that boys' love, because that's what it seems like to me - romance between two men. I don't really care what someone's insular discord community thinks or what the harshest and least forgiving or accepting voices on Tumblr think, and trying so hard to police the exact terminology seems like a total waste of time.

Being so uptight about categorization is pedantry - it has almost nothing to do with the show itself, mostly it's about whoever is complaining the loudest about exact terminology is trying to establish themselves as the person you're supposed to listen to and follow, rather than going with what your heart tells you is right.
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Zac
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:48 pm Reply with quote
Wellington wrote:

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Let me ask you this - do you think there's any difference between "boys' love" and "yaoi"?

Yaoi is - in my completely subjective opinion - pornographic, which is fine, but it's not "boys' love" which is what this list is about. Gay romance. If Yuri on Ice isn't gay romance to you, IMO you have blinders on that blot out the sun and spend too much time in the weeds in pedantic, angry internet communities. It's #1 on our list of boys' love anime because it's a beautiful and touching romance between two men.
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DuskyPredator



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:15 am Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
If Yuri on Ice isn't gay romance to you, IMO you have blinders on that blot out the sun and spend too much time in the weeds in pedantic, angry internet communities. It's #1 on our list of boys' love anime because it's a beautiful and touching romance between two men.


So, if there was a girl love list, could Symphogear appear on it? You could argue the majority of the show is about the central relationship with clear romance between two girls.

What I hear when people say you have to have blinders out, it kind of feels like you are calling me stupid for what my reaction was while watching. Or perhaps get called homophobic. Where does subtext cross the line into plain text.
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ANN_Lynzee
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:38 am Reply with quote
If you guys want to keep talking about yuri, please go to a separate thread that's actually about yuri.
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Redbeard 101
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:35 am Reply with quote
Zac wrote:

Being so uptight about categorization is pedantry - it has almost nothing to do with the show itself, mostly it's about whoever is complaining the loudest about exact terminology is trying to establish themselves as the person you're supposed to listen to and follow, rather than going with what your heart tells you is right.

I agree.

Ok people, do you consider YOI (or any other similar show) to be boys love? Good for you. Do you consider it to be yaoi? Good for you. Do you consider it to be sports themes first? Good for you. If you consider it any of the above over the others you are not wrong to feel that way. What's stupid and creates unnecessary problems is when you want to be the moral authority on which the show predominantly is. Especially when any of the 3 would work. Instead of arguing over honestly pointless categorizations, why not try simply enjoying the damn the show? Simply discuss the actual story, characters, etc. To me that is far more enjoyable then arguing & nitpicking on the internet over what it's main label is.


As for you Wellington/Andrea1234 your little sock puppetry routine is done. Using 2 different accounts to parrot the same thoughts is disingenuous and arguing in very bad faith on it's own. Not to mention you're being quite rude and ignorant towards staff and users. You did this routine before in the past as well and got called out on it. This time you're going on moderation (both accounts).
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