Forum - View topicMushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation (TV).
|
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next |
| Author | Message | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16935 |
|
|||||
Because history would tell us stuff like this will continue to sell. As was mentioned in another thread, another large part of the problem is that culturally in Japan (within the anime fandom) this sort of conduct is seen at least as excusable, and at most not a problem. While that is the case shows like this ("mainstream" as in outside of full blown hentai) will continue to be made. If they didn't sell perhaps the companies would rethink what they do or don't decide to animate, but that's not even a guarantee. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Snowcat
Posts: 190 |
|
|||||
|
Sure, Japanese companies producing Japanese entertainment aimed at Japanese audience is a problem... Maybe the problem is a part of western audience which think it is entitled to enforce its opinion on the subject.
|
||||||
|
||||||
Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23776 |
|
|||||
|
Anime is a global business. If every non-Japanese consumer dollar dried up, anime financing would take a serious hit. Besides which, anime creators freely license their work to international audiences. I pay for watching shows like Jobless Reincarnation which gives me as much right to criticize it as any Akihabara otaku. I understand that as a Westerner I am not top of mind when it comes to anime creation - that's fine. Part of the reason I enjoy anime is that it is so different from other entertainment options I have access to.
But bottom line: anybody who pays for a legitimately licensed product is absolutely "entitled" to have an opinion about it. Tough nuggies to anybody who thinks that anime is some kind of sacred "Japanese only" product that only Japanese otaku are allowed to have opinions on. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Snowcat
Posts: 190 |
|
|||||
|
I completely agree with you, but i was reacting at stating it as a "problem" so implicitly needing self-censorship from the producers (a problem need to be corrected).
It's the same for a lot of animefan and that's why i think some perv stuff have also a place in the production (it was the subject of Shimoseka) and are part of the variety of anime production. This show is also appreciated by westerners (good appreciations and low drop ratio on MAL for example), so i was talking about the minority of western animefans considering this show as "problematic". I understand, during the first episodes, that some watchers didn't know about the perv stuff beforehand and, legitimately, reacted negatively but, at episode 6, knowing the MC will stay a pervert for the whole show and a large part of the comedy will be pervert, this kind of reaction are getting old.
And this is not criticism: it's reframing a perv comedy scene in order to denigrate. |
||||||
|
||||||
DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15462 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
|
|||||
Look, I can watch pervy stuff, I hold Interspecies Reviewers in pretty high acclaim, I can watch a bunch of sex stuff and be okay. But I find it a lot less funny when jokes are about things like a lack of consent, and especially around children. I can watch some messed up stuff, but when it tries to sell messed up stuff as a proper non-porn package, I am going to call it out. Maybe it is a small chance, but I still think there might be a stronger than not possibility that someone might see the sort of things this show uses for humour and might act in a way thinking that it is just a joke. If the cartoon boy in not a porn show could take off the underwear of a sleeping child, why can't they? |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Snowcat
Posts: 190 |
|
|||||
Because they are not 7 years old and in a cartoon... The audience is expected to know (at 13 year old+) that you cannot do that, and differentiate reality from fiction (it's easy here, drawings are not reality). If it isn't the case, it's an individual education failure and for redirecting the blame on a fiction, you have first to demonstrate a causality link. It's the kind of logical fallacy that is used to promote censorship on every subject. Your example of Ishizoku is interesting : the premise of the show is an ecchi comedy in a fantasy setting where characters review prostitutes monster girls. You accept this premise to enjoy the show, even knowing that prostitution is not a subject that funny in reality. On the contrary, in mushoku teisen, the premise is a pervert MC reincarnate into a power fantasy show. The first episodes added to that premise that their is no time skip to adulthood, and thus that there will be pervert stuff involving character at the same age of the MC. You disagree with the premise of pervert stuff involving children so it's obvious you will disagree with some elements of this show, until the MC is adult, but it's on you at this point : you want a different show and there is plenty of Isekai available without a perv MC or starting from a more advanced age (all of them?). Concerning the barn scene, it's not presented as a joke but as Rudeus' perversion, the comedy is Rudeus getting beaten afterwards. On a narrative aspect, it is used to justify Eris beating Rudeus during all the episode, and presenting this violence as a comedic punishment deserved by the MC. If you remove it, Eris will come out as a violent girl using her social status to abuse her servants. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
DuskyPredator
Posts: 15462 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
|
|||||
Yeah, I know are unlikely to just copy it, but I still think that fiction can influence certain mindsets and attitudes that people can act on. For instance, certain derogatory labels and attitudes within the anime community can foster pretty dehumanising ideas of trans people, while a more positive representation can create more positive reactions. Fiction should not be responsible for everything its audience might do that could be seen as emulating it. But that does not absolve a piece from not being able to be criticised when it could encourage certain toxic ideas. You could look in this show itself, with I think the point is there that the owner of the mind was likely influenced by some pretty questionable things in his previous life where he refers to petite women as a loli and thinks it is okay to creep. I don't think the fiction has any awareness of this fact.
Interspecies Reviewers is generally pretty strong at showing how everyone who does things is doing so with consent. I don't know about being funny, but I don't think that prostitution in reality should have the sort of stigma that it tends to attract, and can be perfectly fine as long as there is not an overdue amount of coercion (more than general capitalism) and everyone can kept safe. Even if Rudy has the body of a child, it is the mismatch of his mind decidedly not being that can make it so uncomfortable, since things like consent come from maturity, and there is a mismatch of power between someone with a maturity of an adult and someone not so. Of course imagery could still be uncomfortable if he was doing things with adults. It does not just become cute because of how he looks.
Why need to have him being beaten up at all. The tsundere trope of girl beating up boy at this point is so tired and treated like an okay form of domestic abuse that I imagine can hurt real men who might think that it is fine for it to happen to them. There is not any need to have her beat him up, nor for it to be treated like comedy. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar Posts: 16935 |
|
|||||
Material, in any form of media, that condones, excuses, justifies, or goes as far as to promote sexual assault, rape, pedophilia, etc is in fact a problem. It's not that hard to comprehend. I'll even quantify it more and say this applies to the notion of something that is "mainstream", or meant for a wider general audience. If you want that sort of kink and deviant behavior in your media, leave it to the porn arena. The simple fact is Japan has, for a long time now, excused these sorts of behaviors and it has been seen as not being a problem. Within the context of media consumption. I'll leave the more general cultural aspects out of this. We have shows currently that have a blatant pedophile and sexual deviant of the highest order (this show), and a straight up rapist as the MC (Redo). These MC's are being promoted as sympathetic characters we're supposed to root for, see them advance in the story, all while BLATANTLY excusing their sort of conduct. Why? Because that has been the norm in anime for far too long. That is a Japanese issue as anime is coming from Japan and Japanese animation companies. So yes, this is an issue they need to deal with internally. Times change. As humans have advanced we've (most of us) come to the idea that hey, these sorts of behaviors are rather distasteful and not something to be glorified. Now if they (anime industry) want to go against that then that's their choice. The problem is anime is not made solely for Japan anymore. Anime itself is as much a global product as it is a domestic one. In the context of this show people like to argue Rudy is only a child. He's an adult in a child's body. That sort of thinking simply is bullshit because the very same people argue that he's just a child, are the same that argue a 500 year old loli vampire is in fact not a child to justify making tons of porn of her. Nice hypocritical double standard there. If that 500 year old vampire is not a child but rather an adult, then Rudy sure as shit is an adult as well. He knows what he is doing. He knows the ethics of his actions. Just as he did in his previous life yanking it to child porn which was explicitly mentioned. That's not hyperbole. Then these same people who claim he is a child excuse another child having her face kicked in. It's just karma for her actions. But yet Rudy has no real consequences and just keeps chugging along with the same behavior. Same people who say he's just a child now but say that loli vampire is a real women so they can excuse all the porn of her. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23776 |
|
|||||
|
@ Psycho 101 - I'd be careful of conflating otaku attitudes with that of the general Japanese population. I used to be puzzled why a lot of anime shows treated otaku-ism as something that was generally shameful and had to be hidden from other people. That's because back then I didn't understand that the general Japanese population distaste for otakus wasn't just a simple matter of thinking they were geeky or nerds... it's because a lot of otaku are seen as perverts. Calling somebody in North America a "fan boy" is not the same as a Japanese person calling somebody an otaku. Otaku-ism is seen as much more negative. Shows like Jobless or Redo certainly do nothing to dispel this notion.
So please don't assume that stuff otaku find permissible would be acceptable to many "non-otaku" Japanese people. In fact, there are plenty of actual otakus who find shows like Jobless or Redo repugnant. Otaku who like sexualized situations involving children really are a niche of a niche. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar Posts: 16935 |
|
|||||
|
I meant "Japan" as in primarily within the anime industry as a media platform. There in meaning mostly anime fans. I did not equate that well. I did not mean to infer a lot of these things we see with the Japanese anime media market is the same sort of material you would find in say a J-drama for example. I was trying to keep track of like 5 posts at the same time and was not clear enough.
|
||||||
|
||||||
|
Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23776 |
|
|||||
|
My imaginary Japanese girlfriend is happy to hear it!
|
||||||
|
||||||
|
Snowcat
Posts: 190 |
|
|||||
|
@Psycho 101 thanks for your elaborate answer but, i am sorry, i have to disagree.
Sure but you cannot use a subjective interpretation of intent in the show to characterize "condones, excuses, justifies", that's also a fact. With this kind of convoluted reasoning, Death Note is a problem because it justifies murder, etc... Maybe you watched "Your Name" and during body-switch sequences, it was a problem to present, as comedy, a boy who sexually assaulted someone else body. All shows are a problem following this logic so it's inapplicable. Also, anime may have become "mainstream" as a media, but that doesn't imply that every show has to be mainstream-oriented. Segmentation of target audience has always been a specificity. Thus your "appeal to the People" is kind of irrelevant. If people don't watch those shows, the producers will naturally produce more consensual ones (that's why most of the shows have happy endings). But controversial shows are popular because they are more entertaining then the boring consensual ones. Some people are frustrated with that but it's a shameful component of the success of anime. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar Posts: 16935 |
|
|||||
|
Just to clarify a bit more, when I said mainstream I was using that term as a catchall for anything NOT hentai. Basically for simplicities sake I was breaking anime down into hentai, and non-hentai (mainstream) just for a generalized broad categorization. We can debate on which anime is truly "mainstream" by a wider audience til we're blue in the face, but it's a definitive line between what is hentai, and what is not. I simply couldn't think of an easier/better term so I went with "mainstream" in this context of simply not being hentai. Perhaps simply using the term "regular" would've been better and less confusing.
|
||||||
|
||||||
|
DuskyPredator
Posts: 15462 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
|
|||||
|
Episode 11 (season finale)
Feels a little bit like an anticlimactic end to a season. I guess it did have a bit of a big fight, and some emotional stuff, but there is just something, especially with how I supposed Rudy would have some sort of more run in with his family before season end. Maybe to talk about what this finale might have done alright at as an end point, I even have to talk about what has been a main problem. Rudy is a piece of shit, and the show seemed quite aware of it when faced with a situation to save some people he held off the rescue all for the purposes he thought of making the rescue look better, which led to someone dying. The episode made a point of it, which should be worth points, but I don't know what it means in the sense that we have had a main character that has been pulling this selfish stuff, and the show has not had much a problem in having him be seen as badass and wish fulfilling. What might be a flawed main character can be a good thing, but I think that it has to be measured by the show making it clear that the main character is flawed. It gets a bit murky when for instance Rudy being a creep has I think been met with some level of fanservice, especially problematic in the sense of young girls., which this last episode included two of I think its 12 year old female character changing or in the nude. It has gone out of its way to have Rudy feel badass and smart, and I think a good deal of the audience might see him that way, which is confusing if he is meant to be on a path to learn and become better as so many people keep saying. There is also Paul, which I think the show did very little to make his sleaze side something undesirable. And yet this show could be so actually fantastic. Like it forgoes having an OP in favour of starting episodes with music with something happening on screen that can build the atmosphere of the episode. Artistry in the show was fantastic and well worth talking about how well it is made, which is all the more baffling the other elements. I feel like this is the sort of show that really unsavoury people would hold up as justifying their views by how well made it is, while having some elements of rape apologia, the sexualisation of children and treating things that are pretty much sexual harassment as just a joke. The maid that was impregnated by her master was really actually asking for it, sort of show some point of view and then kind of put something in to say that they are being critical. Like, considering how it ended I would not be surprised if there was some part of Rudy's mother having died from what happened, and his father would end up with the maid, because it could pretend that it is about equality while not at all touching on things like the imbalance of power. Anyway, my rating is going to be as a whole Good (7/10), worth seeing. Although if I was just talking about the technical bits it probably would be an Excellent (9/10), it is just some of the other parts that make me feel so uncomfortable being packaged with such a great looking show that find it actually a bit insidious. With anime some trashy stuff is fine, great even, I am not being some sort of judgemental of what people watch, lord knows I will watch the trash, like the real rape-kun from this season, but when you have certain things packaged like it is the fine dining of anime, I get uncomfortable. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23776 |
|
|||||
DP, once again you figuratively reached right into my mind and articulated exactly what I was thinking. I too rated the show Good and would have rated it higher but couldn't due to its infantile need to sprinkle stupid "ha ha, isn't it hilarious that this 'kid' is a perv?" bullshit into it. I'm not sure I've ever encountered a show as pretty damn good that had such glaring hate-bait for me before. I foolishly thought this finale was going to be the first episode where the show didn't have any of that garbage, but of course they were simply saving it for the end credits, the jerks. Oh well, at least it wasn't as objectionable as other crap they've done. |
||||||
|
||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group