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Hey, Answerman: Rainbows 'n Kittens!


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0utf0xZer0



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 80
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:16 am Reply with quote
Tangent:
While I don't think I've seen the Axe ads in question since I don't watch ads in general, I'm certainly not likely to forget the product anytime soon. A few years back, one guy in my class made a big deal about using it. Some of us self proclaimed smarter types kind of treated the situation with a dry sense of humour, because, well, getting enthusiastic about a body spray? When did that get fun? Until, of course, he used it in a rather small changeroom one time.

I'm not sure if you've ever sat next to someone wearing nauseatingly strong perfume on an airplane, but the experience was quite similar. Honestly, I'd prefer a little BO to that. At least he got the message after quite a few people in the vicinity complained about it.

I'll stick to regular deodorant, thanks.
(end tangent)
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mokitty



Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 106
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:49 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
Ya hit the nail on the head right there. The majority of teenage boys are not so bright. These are the people axe is targeted at.


In the now-immortal words of my S.O. (who now vehemently denies ever having uttered such a statement about his own gender) when I was marvelling one day over something really stupid my teenage youngest brother had done, "I wouldn't worry about it too much. We guys aren't even human until at least our mid-twenties."

Although I would add that the majority of girls that age are also not-so-bright. For every guy using a can a day of that stuff, there's at least one girl leaving her humanity by the wayside to get liquored up and dance with him.

And back to the rant discussion, I wouldn't call "nice" a feminine quality, but rather a human one. People in general aren't as nice these days as tv would have us believe they once were (although we should note at this point that there were also a lot more rules in the past on how "nice" men had to be when courting a girl). Things are a lot more up-front and there's less focus on polite pretenses. I'd say that's a good thing, since it's easier to confront and discuss problems. That aside, there's a difference between "nice" and "doormat".
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:11 am Reply with quote
thats a good point. Teenagers in general are often not that bright. This is exactly why I don't date or hang out with people my own age. Well, that and I'm a nerd. /=
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Ichigo77



Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 389
Location: California
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:44 am Reply with quote
0utf0xZer0 wrote:

Now that said, quite a few moe characters do exhibit traditional woman's roles. Is this necessarily the appeal of moe characters? In my opinion, no. The appeal of moe characters personality wise, especially to slightly geeky types like a lot of anime fans (myself included), is that moe girls are generally "nicer" then the girls we know in real life (not to imply that real girls can't be nice, but moe girls tend to be a little warmer to strangers than real people). In general, humans want to love and be loved, and nerdy single guys generally don't get much of that in real life, even ones like me who are perfectly capable of talking to girls in non-intimate situations.


I would say your right about moe characters appealing to geeky fans because they are nice but i would also say that fact that they show show traditional roles helps too. Like you said "humans want to love and be loved, and nerdy single guys generally don't get much of that in real life" so when you have geeky fans like me who have had girls turn us down or be mean too us through out middle school and high school it is nice to watch something where there is a pretty girl who is very nice and doing nice things for the male character such as cooking for him, wanting to be around him, telling him he is really cool, etc. I would say Miharu from Girls Bravo is a good example of this although finding a girl like that in real life is almost impossible, I would have a better chance of winning the lottery so I'm not holding my breath. Girls like Nodoka and Konoka from Negima are also good examples but more within real life reach.

mokitty wrote:

And I wasn't saying you're whipped, I'm saying that even "back in the day" that you guys keep talking about, the women who appeared "ideal" and presented themselves as demure and obedient were at times actually anything but. Many of them were actually quite wily and cunning and so were the true masters of the household. I would almost hazard that men back then were more likely to be "whipped" as we say than any guy is in this age where everything is on the table.


ok I see ^^v
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mokitty



Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 106
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:37 am Reply with quote
I would submit that high school kids are equal-opportunity b-words.
I think a lot of "geeky" type guys find it hard to believe, but the girls who were mean to you in high school were mean to everyone else, too. That includes their so-called friends. There's a reason movies with titles like "Mean Girls" exist.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:40 am Reply with quote
Ahh! This Answerman has given me a kind of feeling I get like when a blockage in the U-bend of my toilet has finally cleared and everything is alright with the world again. Smile
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mistress_reebi



Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 735
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:28 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:



Ya hit the nail on the head right there. The majority of teenage boys are not so bright. These are the people axe is targeted at.


Say religion or ethnicity A is selling to people of their culture books. In their commericals they make comments about religion or ethnicity B that are offensive. They may be satire, but it offeneded a lot of people. Religion or ethnicity B isn't their target audience, yet they were offended. Wouldn't one say that they should change their marketing that way it isn't offensive? Women may not be the target audience to Axe (like religion or ethnicity B) but that doesn't mean they should be degrated. Sometimes they do buy the product for their son, boyfriend or husband etc. so even though they aren't the target audience they still buy the product.

Ichigo, if you keep living in a moé maid world instead of facing reality you will be hurt in the long run. There are nice girls out there that aren't the stereotypical moé girl, but if you have confidence in yourself girls would see that. People are immature, even if they are over 30 some are still immature. Maybe it isn't the moé maid you want, but recongnition. Good things happen to those who wait. Even nerds find love.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:24 pm Reply with quote
mistress_reebi wrote:
ikillchicken wrote:
Ya hit the nail on the head right there. The majority of teenage boys are not so bright. These are the people axe is targeted at.


Say religion or ethnicity A is selling to people of their culture books. In their commericals they make comments about religion or ethnicity B that are offensive. They may be satire, but it offeneded a lot of people. Religion or ethnicity B isn't their target audience, yet they were offended. Wouldn't one say that they should change their marketing that way it isn't offensive? Women may not be the target audience to Axe (like religion or ethnicity B) but that doesn't mean they should be degrated. Sometimes they do buy the product for their son, boyfriend or husband etc. so even though they aren't the target audience they still buy the product.


Firstly, I didn't say Axe SHOUDN'T change their marketing (from a moral perspective.) I just pointed out that financially, theres no reason to. I will go ahead and day now though, morally speaking I don't even really think they should. Why? Cause its really not a big deal. If people find this offensive they need to get over it. Stop getting all pissed off cause of some stupid TV comercial and go worry about something in real life.
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0utf0xZer0



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 80
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:47 pm Reply with quote
mokitty wrote:
I would submit that high school kids are equal-opportunity b-words.
I think a lot of "geeky" type guys find it hard to believe, but the girls who were mean to you in high school were mean to everyone else, too. That includes their so-called friends. There's a reason movies with titles like "Mean Girls" exist.


Doesn't surprise me at all, actually.

This kind of makes me the odd one out here, but many of the girls I meet in high school were actually among the nicest I've met (I totally lucked out with that). I knew mean girls existed, but I didn't have to deal with them much. I did know a few girls in late elementary school area that were on the mean side, but I'm actually glad for that... made me stay away from them. If you knew the people I'm talking about, you'd know why I consider that a good thing.

As such, I'm not really bitter about how I was treated by girls. In fact, the lack of romance in my life is probably due more to lack of initiative then anything else. I'm pretty sure I could get a girl if I tried - I've known some pretty nerdy guys with cute girlfriends. I just don't feel the need for a girlfriend myself at the moment. I figure I'll know the right girl when I meet her and if I never do, such is life.

So then why do I watch moe anime? I can get by without a girlfriend, but I must admit I'm a sucker for romantic moments, and let's face it, there's just something nice about imagining girls going for you, so to speak. Girls in moe anime tend to be hopelessly romantic. They also happen to be rather cute, and pictures of cute girls happen to be one of my favourite kind of pictures. There's a reason why I use pics of bishoujo game catgirls for desktops on both my computers, albeit ones so tame that they pass the "mom test" (she thinks they're cute and has no idea of their sordid origins... actually cracks me up a little).

This is why, for me at least, moe anime is a good thing. It brings me enjoyable moments, and except for the fact that I dislike the notion of giving the hobby up someday if a real girlfriend resented it, I don't think it really affects my ability to function much. If it did, it would be another matter.

Quote:
I would say your right about moe characters appealing to geeky fans because they are nice but i would also say that fact that they show show traditional roles helps too. Like you said "humans want to love and be loved, and nerdy single guys generally don't get much of that in real life" so when you have geeky fans like me who have had girls turn us down or be mean too us through out middle school and high school it is nice to watch something where there is a pretty girl who is very nice and doing nice things for the male character such as cooking for him, wanting to be around him, telling him he is really cool, etc.


Well, the pretty girl being nice is, as I've mentioned, part of the appeal, and there are traditional stereotypes of a girl being nice to a guy. But are those traditional stereotypes what interest you, or just the fact the girl is being nice? Cooking is not the only way to show affection.

I should also point out that I have no objection to some traditionalism in my anime. I think it's perfectly acceptable for a girl to cook a guy the occassional meal, but if that's all she does she's kind of a boring character. I won't say I hate doormat characters like some have (unless it's so blatantly sexist as to make me feel uncomfortable with it), but they're unlikely to rank high on my favourites list. I'd much prefer a girl who I could connect with more yet was still moe. I personally have the fantasy of cuddling with a girl while watching anime (wow, I must be sounding like a hopelessly romantic super nerd right now - but of course that's exactly what I am).

Quote:
Ichigo, if you keep living in a moé maid world instead of facing reality you will be hurt in the long run. There are nice girls out there that aren't the stereotypical moé girl, but if you have confidence in yourself girls would see that. People are immature, even if they are over 30 some are still immature. Maybe it isn't the moé maid you want, but recongnition. Good things happen to those who wait. Even nerds find love.


While I'm all for facing reality and totally behind nerds who want to get girlfriends, bare in mind that while moe girls and girlfriends may fulfill some of the same wants, they should never, ever be considered equivalent options. For some of us, the moe girl actually DOES suit us better (something I hope my own example should convince you of). In fact, I fully expect I might watch a bit of moe anime even if I had a girlfriend just because it offers some charms that I can't really get any other way.

I imagine some of you are probably thinking I'm playing both sides of this debate here... I don't mean to, I just have a very nuanced position.
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Jared_Hussen



Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 43
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:05 am Reply with quote
Just as a side note, I pity my future gf.

"This ring goes around your neck, not your finger....the spikes? oh, that's the latest fad, i swear"
"you don't like hot candle wax? oh, don't worry, we can change that"
etc.

...and no, gf doesn't stand for "guardian force" (as I first thought...god i live a sad life) Wink

Also as a side note, even though I haven't followed the Nymphet thing at all, it sounds a lot like the older anime Rizelmine (at least for lolicon reasons) .... does anyone know if THAT anime made it's way here or not?
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