Forum - View topicThe Evangelion Discussion. ( Spoilers, so be warned)
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retty
 Posts: 118 Location: Cheshire, UK |
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I don't really think they should be comapred too much as the rebuild is following it's own story. But as a film on it's own, i thought eva 1.0 was terrible. It had dreadful, rushed pacing, no characterisation and very little happening until the end. If I had paid to see it I would have been pretty mad.
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eyeresist
 Posts: 995 Location: a 320x240 resolution igloo (Sydney) |
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I think Rebuild 1.0 is better than the series overall. The changes consist mostly of cutting fat and needless complication. I'm glad they showed that fight all the way through, as I always thought it was pointless and pretentious the way they delayed the payoff like that. Undoubtedly it created a feeling of mystery, but it didn't serve the actual story. I picked up the vanilla DVD recently and found it mostly as enjoyable as first time I saw it, except for two points (1) the triumphant build-up music that would play whenever the eva was about to be launched was cheesy and unnecessary (2) Shinji running away seemed really unmotivated. Sure, Misato told him off (or attempted to), but she was still fairly mild and caring about it, plus his little school friends now think he is the bee's knees. Plus, as he said, he won the fight, so surely he should be feeling boosted after this? The DVD (Australian release) omitted the "toothpicks" subtitle, rather undermining the gag with Shinji's "little Shinji". |
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Nagisa
Moderator
 Posts: 6128 Location: Atlanta-ish, Jawjuh |
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I'll agree with this. I actually found it incredibly jarring that they showed the whole thing up front. Of course seeing EVA-01 suddenly spring to life and maul Sachiel like a wild bear wouldn't have the same shock value in 2007 as it did in 1995 seeing as we now know it's coming, but the dramatic buildup to seeing it was still masterfully done and preserving it would've been greatly appreciated. However, I'll also say that the stretch between about episode three and episode seven of the original series was about like pulling teeth to watch. I believe my exact thought process was something to the effect of, "yes, we get it, we should feel sorry for Shinji, now quit stalling and please move the plot forward so that we can find a reason to do so...also, no, Rei is not that fascinating without the eventual late-series revelations, so having two Rei episodes this early is not a good idea, stop it." So the fact that the movie managed to spice up most of it and omit the rest was extremely welcome. |
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Jkid
 Posts: 197 Location: Capitol Heights ,MD |
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So for Eva 1.0 is better than the original. It's practically more like a reboot of the series because of the new scenes and shots.
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eyeresist
Posts: 995 Location: a 320x240 resolution igloo (Sydney) |
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Well, yeah, the movies are going off at a wild tangent from the series, which I think is good. Fans who've watched the series half a dozen times or more don't really need to see the whole thing done again on a larger screen. Plus it'll be interesting to see how the movie plot develops, considering the years Anno has had to develop as a person and as an artist.
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Ktimene's Lover
 Posts: 2242 Location: Glendale, AZ (Proudly living in the desert) |
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I honestly liked the movie but not as much as the TV series. I think the original movies are better because End of Eva was intended to be the finale of Evangelion. I also liked how the TV series had more fleshed events, character development, action, etc.
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Joichiro Nishi
Posts: 163 |
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Rebuild of Evangelion is Evangelion adapting into our times, our crappy, moe-moe, self indulgence times.
Evangelion 1.0.- Good animation, lazy script, terrible ending. I know everybody is: OMG! The final battle is AWESOME, but it was just a generic shounen ending. The pacing is horrible, it looks more like a clip show than a movie. Evangelion 2.0.- Did you ever wished an anime adaptation for one of those crappy fics from Fanfiction.net? If you did, you're gonna love this movie. Evangelion's fandom is the weirdest of all fandoms. Most of them say they love Evangelion but at the same time they hate it. Most of Evafans hate everything that was creative or rebel in Evangelion, it seems they only liked it for the battle sequences, Rei and Asuka (not as characters but as PVC figures). |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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Well, most rational Eva fans will admit the title's flaws, and I for one still find Instrumentality highly disturbing and somewhat repulsive as a concept. I'd be surprised if, in general, those who like Eva constitute a fanbase any odder than other fanbases for popular anime titles. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Haven't seen Rebuild 2.0 yet, but found myself ambivalent about Rebuild 1.0 more often than not. The climatic fight really goes a long way to redeem the previous hour, which is practically a clip show that really strips away the atmosphere and sense of time that the original series has. If it were over two hours I can imagine the pacing actually flowing better, allowing events to come more naturally, but it didn't turn out that way.
The liberal use of the word "pretentious" -- the laziest, most clichéd "criticism" of art -- is all too frequently pretentious. The structure of episode two allows that final scene to have more impact than it would otherwise; jumping from a rather light, comedic mood as Shinji moves in to Misato's attempt to assure him would have been unjustifiably jarring (which far too many anime series do, a fault sadly accepted by fans).
Since when did shonen battles replace the standard (overly) dramatic endings found in films for decades? (Shit, you could make an argument for Battleship Potemkin being one of the earliest examples.) Archetypes =/= Stereotypes
Statistics, please. Recognizing the flaws in a television series -- which every single one has -- does not mean that fans are engaged in a "love-hate" relationship with it. |
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Joichiro Nishi
Posts: 163 |
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Yeah but one thing is recognize flaws and other is to hate everything the series is about. It's like if a DBZ fan says: "I love DBZ but it has too many fights. Why the characters can't resolve their diferences using words instead of violence? And I hate Goku, he is too optimistic. I'd prefer a dark avenger. Why Goku can't be like Batman?" If someone said that, it's clear that DBZ isn't for him. Most of Evangelion fandom hate Shinji even if the entire point of the series is the deconstruction of mecha genre. Most of Evangelion fandom don't like the second half of the series even if it has the most creative episodes. Many hated End of Evangelion because Shinji didn't become "a man" and he didn't save the world saying an heroic speech. Why many Evangelion fans like Re-Take? Because it's what they wanted to watch, a generic shoune ending. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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I'm seriously skeptical that most Evangelion fans hate the second half of the series.
Hating on individual elements doesn't mean that they're too much for people to not appreciate the whole. I do find it personally odd as there's nothing in any of my favorite series/films/novels/et cetera that I hate -- certainly would like to have changed, but nothing that strong of an emotion -- but it's not difficult to consider that people would like Evangelion (series and EoE) overall while despising Shinji/Misato/Asuka/Rei/Gendo/whoever. (But none hate on Pen-Pen. You are not a fan if you hate on Pen-Pen.) Edit: Basically someone can be a fan of something even if they miss the whole [expletive] point of it. |
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eyeresist
Posts: 995 Location: a 320x240 resolution igloo (Sydney) |
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I only used the word once, not "liberally", but with deliberate meaning. And you used it twice, therefore, by your own definition, you lose. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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That's petty and pedantic, and also misses my point. "Liberal" can mean "loose"; it does not necessarily mean an "excessive amount." You're liberally using the word pretentious, one of the laziest fallbacks for any critic -- amateur or professional -- of art. You don't give any reasons for why you believe Anno's deliberate structure of episode two is "pretentious" (or "pointless") -- not even now, despite how I've given a clear argument to the contrary. |
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eyeresist
Posts: 995 Location: a 320x240 resolution igloo (Sydney) |
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*Sigh* Okay, since you don't seem to be able to understand my point without a Powerpoint show... Your argument:
Okay, the two ways in which the original series approach is effective are (a) suspense, i.e. the viewer is asking "Why didn't they show it? What important thing is being hidden from us, and why are they hiding it?"; and (b) the dramatic contrast between Shinji's domestic insecurity and the brutal horror of the Eva going ape****. I don't deny the dramatic effectiveness of this device. However, the question the viewer asked during the period of suspense is never answered. In fact, there is no dramatically logical answer to the viewer's question: the effects of suspense and dramatic contrast are used for their own sake, not to make any kind of point about Shinji's alienation, or the nature of the Eva. Now, the viewer will be emotionally affected by this dramatic device, and, if it doesn't occur to them to askwhy the payoff to the fight was delayed, they will believe the show's implicit claim to high artistic quality. But the claim to high artistic quality is (in this particular case) not merited, because the dramatic effect was obtained by a device unrelated to the requirements of the work. What we call a "cheap trick", in fact. Now you see why I applied the word "pretentious", meaning an unjustified claim to distinction, importance or merit. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Uh, except it does cast Shinji's actions in a different light. There's an uneasiness and artificiality in the actions between him and Misato for the majority of episode two. This is even pointed out by a throwaway line by Misato when she's in the bath. It's not until when the characters are isolated that they shed that artifice and confront their demons -- this is a constant theme throughout the show (enforced with the symbol of doorways, "dark, lonely nights," et cetera). It anticipates so many examples, particularly the second half, that I shouldn't even mention it. If the fight had been placed at the beginning of the episode, the ending would have either been an unnecessary and awkward tonal shift or been cut out altgother; instead, the episode maintains a consistent flow and build by the fight's specific placement to establish cinematic and character ideas that will also be of importance later. Anno can and does indulge himself too much at times, but the charge of shallow manipulation -- or it being a "cheap trick" -- does not follow. |
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