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Avec ou Nous
Joined: 17 Feb 2023
Posts: 105
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 Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 9:34 pm
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| ATastySub wrote: | | Are those 'critics' in the room with us right now? |
I don't know if any of them have accounts on these forums or not. I would guess probably not though.
| Shay Guy wrote: | | Not sure what your point is. In pure terms of popularity, Mushoku Tensei is pretty much the top dog in Narou isekai novels, just as much as DB and OP are in shonen battle manga |
Also when the American editions of the light novel for Mushoku Tensei were found to have censored the problematic content in their version's release the fanbase complained and wanted those passages restored which they were successful in getting Seven Seas to do so. So it turned out the majority of the audience's enjoyment for the series was lessened due to the removal of said content. I know some people really don't like isekai anime and a lot of the stuff that isekai anime has but it's very popular and obviously most anime fans do like it so I would certainly question the claim that general audiences don't like this stuff. There's stuff out there I don't like but if it's popular then I have no issue admitting I'm obviously in the minority in those situations.
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Top Gun
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4576
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:51 pm
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| King Chicken wrote: | |
And it should be only fair said fans have an equal right to call those naysayers on that in turn. It's fine to not like "questionable" series, but at some point I feel people have to ask themselves if they're really the general audience or if they're the ones who are the minority here with the contrarian opinion. I feel like when the biggest nerd convention in the world is Comiket which has dedicated days to smut works filled with said "questionable" content, along with the majority of anime is filled with said "questionable" content and said "questionable" series tend to be the most popular and successful series worldwide then it's because that's what the general audience likes. If anyone should keep their opinions on the downlow and to themselves then maybe it should be the naysayers. |
You have some bizarre definitions and comparisons going on here. For one, I'm not sure how you'd label "people who would go to Comiket to buy smut" as any sort of "general" audience. Sizeable, yes, but a mere drop in the bucket when held up against the global anime-viewing audience, to say nothing of the general population. I challenge you to explain the content of something like, say, OniAi to a non-anime viewer in your life and see just what sort of reaction you get. That aside, I've seen hundreds of anime series and movies in my time, and while I'd give many of them the equivalent of an R rating, there are only a handful I'd call truly "questionable," and certainly none of the most popular from a global standpoint.
| Quote: | | Did the creators of One Piece, Dragonball, Mushoku Tensei, and all the other top dogs somehow game the system when they created such successful series despite being filled with problematic content, or is the truth that most people are fine with all the fanservice and crass jokes in those shows because it's what general audiences actually like. Are the people rolling their eyes everytime Nami gets her clothes torn off really the majority here? Is Oda just that disconnected from his general audience that he keeps making these blunders and putting in things most people don't actually like, or is he actually giving people exactly what they want and enjoy out of the series? Just my two cents. |
Okay now this is just hilarious. So you're lumping in "global mass-market hit featuring the occasional bit of bawdy humor that was fine by 80s standards," "global mass-market hit featuring the occasional bit of bawdy humor that was fine by 90s/00s standards," and--*checks notes*--"otaku-targeted series featuring a literal pedophile who gets transported to a fantasy situation in which he is able to live out his proclivities without consequence." Like I'm sorry, but any definition of "problematic" that lumps these three properties in the same group is so laughably broad that it's functionally useless. ATastySub is right, it's not even worth engaging. Oh, and for the record, I don't think there's anyone on the planet whose main attachment to One Piece is the fact that there's the occasional boob gag. If there is, I certainly admire their persistence, since they've spent weeks of their life watching content that has nothing to do with that.
Actually, and apologies for drifting a bit further off-topic, let's examine One Piece for a moment. There's a certain element in that series where Oda has noticeably changed how he handles it over the years. The okama, as originally represented by Mr. 2 and later by Ivankov's subjects, were...well let's just say that "problematic" is selling it a bit short even at the time, and certainly more so today. Fast-forward to the recent Wano arc, and you have characters like Kiku and Yamato, who are portrayed in a far more respectful light, to the point where their identities are barely commented on and are treated as a given. Hey, look at that, maybe that whole "problematic" thing isn't even completely shrugged off by a series' own author!
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thecowardlyantoine
Joined: 04 Aug 2023
Posts: 11
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 12:59 pm
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| Top Gun wrote: | | Actually, and apologies for drifting a bit further off-topic, let's examine One Piece for a moment. There's a certain element in that series where Oda has noticeably changed how he handles it over the years. The okama, as originally represented by Mr. 2 and later by Ivankov's subjects, were...well let's just say that "problematic" is selling it a bit short even at the time, and certainly more so today. Fast-forward to the recent Wano arc, and you have characters like Kiku and Yamato, who are portrayed in a far more respectful light, to the point where their identities are barely commented on and are treated as a given. Hey, look at that, maybe that whole "problematic" thing isn't even completely shrugged off by a series' own author! |
As someone who follows One Piece fairly vigorously, I'm going to call you on this and say I've never seen Oda state he changed his views at all and it's just your words being put on the man to justify your own continued fondness of the series since I can't recall anything of that sort ever popping up in an SBS or interview anywhere else. He certainly has not changed the way he draws and depicts the okama in recent chapters if that's anything to go by. Even in the very recent (2021) Shokugeki No Sanji Chapter 4 spin off which Oda had to approve of, they did a 1:1 of the Sanji in Newkamba Kingdom adaption so trying to dismiss everything in the series before Wano as being "of the time" and Oda (and these other authors) are somehow secretly ashamed of anything made before the current year sounds completely unfounded.
It sounds more like you're trying to rationalize why you still like these series despite them going against many of your own beliefs in many areas by using an unrelated character to the disucssion like Yamato who is not an okama and who Oda has drawn several pin-ups with the other female characters before as well so he's still doing that too. Just the other day I saw the Eiichiro Staff account on X advertising a half-naked Nami statue and at least the quote posts for that had people being honest with themselves that they wish the franchise wasn't in the hands of Oda and was rather than try to rationalize to themselves how it's not a part of the series' identity or appeal.
The last time we saw Bon Clay in the series was in 2012 doing his thing in Impel Down being the okama queen to a bunch of guys in prison, but chances are the next time we do see Bon Clay he's gonna be acting and looking the same way he did the last time we saw him since people like that about him and it's why he's such a funny and beloved character in the fandom. That's why in every modern video game or other media or merch he still looks and acts like that despite it being the current year.
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