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Answerman - Why Are Motion-Smoothing Televisions So Terrible For Anime?


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Zhou-BR



Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Posts: 1427
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:59 pm Reply with quote
What really drives me crazy is when frame interpolation not only is on by default, but the TV won't let me switch it off when I'm running the Netflix app or watching something stored in a USB drive. It's what keeps me from buying Philips TVs, which usually only allow me to switch interpolation off when the video signal comes from a device connected via HDMI, or a TV antenna.
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EricJ2



Joined: 01 Feb 2014
Posts: 4016
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:22 pm Reply with quote
Justin wrote:
Some people really like the look of high frame rates. So far, only four movies have been released at high frame rates, and Peter Jackson's The Hobbit trilogy were three of them. (Ang Lee's recent box office bomb, Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk was the other.) There are only a handful of theaters that can play these films at their full 48 fps frame rates, so almost nobody saw them in this format. Many of those that did reportedly hated how it looked: the image seemed flat, sets looked cheap and flimsy, and suddenly every seam of the film started to show. They called the look of higher frame rates the "soap opera effect," because suddenly everything looked like a cheap soap opera.


I didn't mind HFR in the first Hobbit (the movies, OTOH... Mad ), although it did look like we were watching the video making-of segments on the Blu-ray disk.

Motion-smoothing is one of the settings turned on automatically when playing 3D disks on 3DTV's (admit it, haters, you've never watched one! Razz ), for creating that same "live" feel, to make the 3D footage seem more "solid" in HDTV, and less like a flat film image.
It's not meant for drawn animation, especially anime, which might often be 12fps to begin with. (For fun, I'd tried watching classic Walt-era hand-painted Disney in SOE, and the results were even worse than anime.)

It's a fun toy to play with if you're watching a live-action movie--where movement is realistic and not recreated by artists--but like every other neato TV feature, you can turn it on and off in the settings, or let the set apply the right tool for the right job.
No Change-dot-org petitions necessary.
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Ouran High School Dropout



Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Posts: 440
Location: Somewhere in Massachusetts, USA
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:05 pm Reply with quote
Thanks, Justin, for an article I had to see, and at the right time! I've been comparing 4K sets over the last few months, to prepare for the day when my 2006 vintage 1080p finally dies. I've read about the horrors of interpolation elsewhere, of course, but I had no idea it had such a disastrous effect on anime.
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pluvia33



Joined: 23 Mar 2005
Posts: 194
Location: Dayton, OH, USA
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:29 pm Reply with quote
Wow, this is my first time hearing about this feature. All of our TVs are 5+ years old and were about the cheapest 1080p TVs we could find at the time, so I don't think they're "good" enough to have such an "advanced" feature. I'll definitely keep an eye out for it whenever I might end up getting a new TV, but hopefully it does die considering when I did a search for the term all of the results on the first page considered the feature to be a negative.

The only feature on our main TV that does annoy me to no end is Overscan. It crops out about half an inch from all sides of the picture, which is particularly annoying when playing video games or hooking up my computer to the TV. And every time when the TV is turned off-and-on or whenever the input is changed, Overscan gets turned back on. So irritating.
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Sylontack



Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 193
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:31 pm Reply with quote
I don't know how animation looks with the feature, but this definitely explains why my ex's TV always made everything we watched look like a soap opera. It really bothered me and I couldn't understand why it made literally everything look like that.
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Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 7580
Location: Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:33 pm Reply with quote
Just Passing Through wrote:
Even if you turn off all the image processing from a TV's menu, there will still be some processing going on somewhere. With flashing images (machine gun fire in action movies), my Panasonic HD TV tends to strobe, so you have to go into the picture settings, you know, Cinema, Live, Sport and so on, and switch it to Game Mode, which has the fastest refresh rate, as it turns off most of the image processing that you can't normally access as a user. Result no strobing.

Sounds like a dynamic contrast function. Had something similar with my TV. Most notable with the loading bar on my PlayStation, where the black background would pulse along with it, and the setting was buried deep in the advanced options.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4603
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:39 pm Reply with quote
The family TV is old enough that even though it theoretically has this sort of function, it's subtle enough that I've never bothered to turn it off. I've definitely seen it in other locations though, and yeah, it makes live-action TV look all sorts of weird. I can't even imagine what it does to anime's limited framerates.

I did want to pick on one little statement, though:

Quote:
The human eye has a sample rate of roughly 60-80 times per second, so beyond that, there's not much perceptible difference.

There's a lot of debate and (mis)information about the human eye and perceptions of framerate/refresh rate (a lot of it tied up in console fanboy nonsense), which is compounded by the fact that the way in which our brains process our eyes' raw visual signals into what we really "see" is still a very active idea of research. It is true that there's a range somewhere around 60 Hz where we're able to perceive stationary light-to-dark flicker (even though it's not really a "sample rate," since the eyes provide continuous light to the rod and cone cells in the retina). But the real trick is what happens when objects are in motion: this site seems to give a good explanation. Basically, when you have objects moving across your field of vision, the motion makes it much easier to pick up on the individual frames. It's something you've probably noticed if you've driven by a house with LED Christmas lights: even if you can't see it while standing still, when they're moving it's easy to pick up on that telltale 60 Hz AC flicker. As far as gaming goes, I have a legit 144 Hz display, and the difference between a game displaying at 144 FPS and one limited to 60 is extremely noticeable when there's on-screen action. Obviously that's a different situation than artificial motion interpolation, since the game engine is actually generating that many individual frames, but I figured it's worth noting.
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writerpatrick



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 672
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:05 pm Reply with quote
I think the idea for this came from the way rapid motion suddenly looked choppy on digital sets after video went from analog to digital. Rapid motion in analog was smooth. In digital it can seem blocky and choppy. What's needed is some smart technology to tell if the feature is needed or not and only turns on those times when needed.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:56 pm Reply with quote
Greed1914 wrote:
I'm not a fan of the motion smoothing. Years ago, my dad got a new TV that had it, and he seemed quite pleased because of how it worked with sports. When we switched to some live-action TV show, I asked him to disable the feature because I could see the effect it was having. He was pretty confused because he didn't see what I was talking about. I would guess that since he predominantly watches sports, and I predominantly watch anime, it made our perceptions different.


I think it all comes down to what people are accustomed to seeing.

In contrast to those who watch normal TV and movies, there are some people who grew up on video games and PC games rather than normal television, who can't stand anything less than 60 frames per second. It gets kind of ridiculous among a few PC gamer circles, who are in an arms race to increase their frame rates as high as possible. To them, to watch something at a mere 24 frames per second appears choppy and nausea-inducing for some. (For gamers, I think another factor is drops in framerate when certain games stress their processors too much, as that's jarring and interferes with gameplay. I would bet some of them associate low framerates with that sort of lag.)

There was an Extra Credits video about framerate in video games--if we take some of the commenters' words for it, some of these people's computers run on framerates as high as 200 frames per second.going on.

Honestly, it's interesting to see this other side as well, the people who cannot stand higher framerates. I'm used to seeing backlash from some games' lower framerates, calling them "cinematic mode," in which they accuse the game designers of sacrificing framerate for something else.

But I think, looking at both sides now, it comes down to what the production was originally meant for. It should be shown in the framerate as was intended by the creators. Certain video and computer games, especially racing games and non-sprite fighting games, were meant to be played at high frame rates. Heck, anything fast-moving could be like that too: There were complaints when the Gamecube and Xbox versions of Sonic Heroes were at 60 fps but the PlayStation 2 version was at 30 fps. Sonic is a series with fast-moving gameplay, so it can be harder to visually process at a lower framerate.
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cbm80



Joined: 23 Jan 2017
Posts: 4
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:56 pm Reply with quote
I've been watching anime with (Sony) motion interpolation for a couple months and think it's excellent. As best I can tell, hand-drawn animation isn't affected at all, probably because the frame rate falls below 24fps. Only the computer animation (including of course pans) is interpolated, and very well indeed. Give it a chance, you may be amazed.
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Vibrant Wolf



Joined: 07 Feb 2016
Posts: 109
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:00 pm Reply with quote
First saw this crap in my adolescence (aside from soaps). Lord of the Rings was playing.

Thank you for explaining why Legolas's armor was cornier than it should have been (which was not corny at all).
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mrsatan



Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 912
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:03 pm Reply with quote
I like it sometimes. Like has been said, panning looks smooth instead of choppy juddering.
The only thing that really doesn't work on it is camera shaking, like an earthquake or explosion scene.
But you NEVER want to use this feature while gaming. It will cause severe lag/delay. Most TVs seem to have a "game" mode that deactivates all this stuff.
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TheAncientOne



Joined: 06 Oct 2010
Posts: 1872
Location: USA (mid-south)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:08 pm Reply with quote
Some sets have an alternative setting to frame interpolation called black frame insertion. Once again, don't expect it to actually be called that in the menu. This normally works better than simply reverting to repeating the same frame, which is what is often the result on a 120Hz TV when frame interpolation is disabled.

pluvia33 wrote:

The only feature on our main TV that does annoy me to no end is Overscan. It crops out about half an inch from all sides of the picture, which is particularly annoying when playing video games or hooking up my computer to the TV. And every time when the TV is turned off-and-on or whenever the input is changed, Overscan gets turned back on. So irritating.

Having overscan on by default should be a crime, but too many sets come with it on by default.

One of the few instances where overscan be useful is for SD broadcasts that have a visible scan line at the top where the information encoded for closed captions becomes visible, but even that would have been better addressed by a masking option. That said, a SD image isn't going to scale evenly on a HD display, and the content was typically created with overscan in mind.

Like motion interpolation, finding where overscan is in one's TV menu and how to turn it off (sometimes by turning a setting ON instead) is complicated by the fact that many manufacturers call it something else. My current TV requires setting the input to "PC mode". My previous TV called it "1:1 aspect".
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Suena



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 289
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:22 pm Reply with quote
I wonder if this is what makes the images on my grandparents' new TV display look so weird. There's this bizarre fuzzed afterimage whenver a figure moves, like its being being followed by it's own ghost. It's subtle, but annoying.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4603
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:57 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:

I think it all comes down to what people are accustomed to seeing.

In contrast to those who watch normal TV and movies, there are some people who grew up on video games and PC games rather than normal television, who can't stand anything less than 60 frames per second. It gets kind of ridiculous among a few PC gamer circles, who are in an arms race to increase their frame rates as high as possible. To them, to watch something at a mere 24 frames per second appears choppy and nausea-inducing for some. (For gamers, I think another factor is drops in framerate when certain games stress their processors too much, as that's jarring and interferes with gameplay. I would bet some of them associate low framerates with that sort of lag.)

There was an Extra Credits video about framerate in video games--if we take some of the commenters' words for it, some of these people's computers run on framerates as high as 200 frames per second.going on.

Honestly, it's interesting to see this other side as well, the people who cannot stand higher framerates. I'm used to seeing backlash from some games' lower framerates, calling them "cinematic mode," in which they accuse the game designers of sacrificing framerate for something else.

Eh, there's a pretty fundamental difference between framerates in games vs. movies/TV, and I doubt that most gamers who build high-performance rigs to maximize FPS would automatically favor the same with produced content they watch. (They're certainly vehemently opposed to "fake" refresh rates like those generated by interpolation.) Higher FPS values in a game have a legitimate practical benefit: more frames being rendered means smoother performance and potentially heightened situation awareness, which can be critical for genres like shooters. In contrast, varying the framerate of a movie isn't really anything more than an aesthetic choice. I saw the first Hobbit movie in 48 FPS, and while I didn't flat-out hate it, it was definitely a jarring experience that I didn't bother repeating for the remaining parts.
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