Forum - View topic[OT] Snow White ... 2?
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cookie
Former ANN Editor in Chief
 Posts: 2460 Location: Do not contact me for support. |
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Well, this ain't anime, so it's not worth posting to the front page... but, Disney seems to hotly pursuing "sequel" movies over the past few years.
Admittedly, I had no problem with Lion King 2 (heck, I even enjoyed it a bit), and although I found Little Mermaid 2 boring, it wasn't too old, so I had no problem with a 'sequel' movie... Now with Peter Pan 2 (with work done by the Disney TV animation studio, not their movie animation studio!) coming out and various other titles en route (Dumbo 2, Cinderella 2) I think things have gone far enough. Someone put up a petition to show their disappointment over the recent sequels, and is begging Disney to stop work on Snow White 2. Here's the petition: http://www.petitiononline.com/sw2/ Yeah, I signed it.. I don't think it'll do any good (it's been around for over 3 weeks, apparently. I was #350 to sign it)... but I felt that I really needed to say something about the way Disney's been raping Walt's original ideas. More info about Disney's sequels: http://www.animationmagazine.net/features/2_15_2.html and http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,45640,00.html ... suprisingly, Fox News actually has some useful information in it, for once! ;) Thanks for listening. No, you don't need to sign. Heck, you don't even have to care... but I'm a fan of ALL animation, not just japanese animation... and to see disney's earlier works get torn to shreds by poorly animated sequels, it's quite annoying. |
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GATSU
Posts: 15307 |
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DISNEY unoriginal?! Oh cmon, how can you forget classics like the Lion King and Atlantis? :)
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Tenchi
 Posts: 4469 Location: Ottawa... now I'm an ex-Anglo Montrealer. |
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Say what you like about the Kimbavs. the Lion King affair, but don't lump Atlantis in along with it. The whole Nadia vs. Atlantis thing was total bunk from the get-go and has been debunked pretty much item-by-item by Nadia enthusiast Dr. Marc Hairston on his own Nadia site http://utd500.utdallas.edu/~hairston/atlantis.html and a more concise version of his main arguments appeared in the November Animerica alongside his feature article on Nadia http://www.animerica-mag.com/features/nadiavsatlantis.html . It could be that Hairston's reasoning is totally flawed, but I've yet to see any counter arguments debunking him. |
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LordByronius
ANN Columnist
 Posts: 861 Location: Philippe for America! He is five. |
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I hate to say it, but signing that dinky [url]http://www.animejump.com/cgi-bin/go.cgi?go=editorial/e-petitions]online petition[/url] is about as effective as me taking a leak in my bathroom sink. Speaking of which, I have somewhere to be...
But seriously though, I really doubt Disney has the sheer unmitigated audacity to sequalize Snow White. The sequals and such for Peter Pan and Lady and the Tramp don't phase me much, mainly because they were mildly successful films that Disney himself didn't really care much for. Hell, the new Peter Pan movie is a psuedo-adaptation of one of the original Peter Pan books. Cinderella II, now that's a different story... "HAPPILY EVER AFTER...OR NOT?!? COMING SUMMER 2002!!!" [/url] |
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Ataru
 Posts: 2306 Location: Missouri (Strikeman) |
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It dosen't really matter to me becasue I stop buying from Disney (execpt if one of these movies that looks really good, but they can make as many sequals as they want, but I'm not buying them anyway. Sooner or later, people will get smart and stop buying them.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Funny how Gatsu mentions The Lion King and Atlantis as being unoriginal yet those are two of Disney's best recent works. Atlantis is essentially an old-fashioned adventure movie that makes no pretension about being otherwise. Lion King is essentially Hamlet in the Savannah, and it's a fantastic movie. Being able to point out similarities between it and something else doesn't negate the fact that it's a great film. I really hate the fanboy tendency to cry "UNORIGINAL" at the top of their lungs and then claim something is awful simply because they've seen it done before. Okay, we get it, you've seen a lot of media and are trying to prove it by making a big stink about it. As for Disney's sequel problems, they need money and this is a cheap way to do it. We live in a capitalist society, folks. Get used to it. Word down the grapevine is that Eisner has been handed an ultimatum; fix ABC, get profits up, or get the hell out. While it's being denied now, Eisner has stuck his foot in his mouth so many times recently I wouldn't be surprised if it was true. Keep an eye on Disney; once they lose that Pixar contract, they might be in real trouble. Lilo & Stitch looks fantastic, though, and those trailers are dynamite...
-Zac |
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GATSU
Posts: 15307 |
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Disney wouldn't be in the crapper if it wasn't for Eisner's arrogance and lack of consideration for the people who are the cornerstones of the Disney empire. He went over-budget on Dinosaur and Pearl Harbor, just so he could one-up Don Bluth and Titanic. And I don't like Katzenburg much either, but Eisner was worse because he didn't even pay him royalties for helping Aladdin and the Lion King become such a huge success. (Hell, Eisner doesn't even want to pay the family of the Winnie the Pooh books for royalties to the home video and dvd! Talk about biting the hand that FEEDS you!)
As for ABC, if that retard actually thought about creating unique and innovative shows, instead of relying on Millionaire every week, then maybe the network would have better ratings! (For example, Mulholland Drive was originally going to be a tv show, before ABC rejected it, for example.) So Eisner has no one to blame but himself, and I hope the fact that they're making crappy sequels to classics causes them to bleed even more money! |
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cookie
Former ANN Editor in Chief
Posts: 2460 Location: Do not contact me for support. |
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well, yeah, that's why I said it prolly wouldn't work. :) however, some online movements have proven successful (Mononoke w/ Japanese audio, arguably the CCS subbed petitions/e-mail drive, Save our Sailors, etc...) -- of course, those are powered by thousands of people, supported with letter-writing and the like. This one (obviously) isn't. But I can still state my displeasure of having to live through this total lack of creativity from Disney. ;) As for Atlantis: a lot of what was shown before it came out in theaters seemed to indicate that yes, there were a lot of potential similarities between it and Nadia. Lee Zion wrote our original Nadia vs Atlantis article (which was one of the most popular stories of the year, iirc...) Once the movie came out, we realized that there weren't any similarities whatsoever. :) In fact, he wrote a 2nd article which basically says, "heh. looks like we were worried over nothing"... it ran about a month after Atlantis came out, IIRC. you can read the 2nd nadia vs atlantis article here: animenewsnetwork.com/archives/feature/nadia2.php the original article can still be read here: animenewsnetwork.com/archives/feature/atlantis.php |
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Animan
Posts: 65 |
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"I really hate the fanboy tendency to cry 'UNORIGINAL' at the top of their lungs and then claim something is awful simply because they've seen it done before."
You can't blame the fans for a Disney dud. The real problem with Atlantis is not because it's "unoriginal". The problem with Atlantis is because it is unimaginative, uninspiring, and BORING. The audience (of adults and kids) that I sat with didn't know what to think of the film: the characters are uninvolving and unappealing, and they lack any kind distinctive emotional development or depth. The cutting, timing, and pacing of the film lacks any character, rhythm or precise clearity. And the violence in the film is easily manufactured without any real motive for it--it comes across as violence for show ("You see! We're Disney but we can do COOL violent action scenes too!"). For Sure, the film LOOKS nice...but that didn't seem to be enough to bring back the American audiences for repeat viewings of the film. So don't tell me again how 'great' or 'underappreciated' Atlantis is. And don't start tossing numbers around at me about how much the film made worldwide. All one has to do is to check the Rotten Tomatoes website and its collection of national reviews to see that many critics found Atlantis to be nothing more than Disney's garbage. --the Animan Last edited by Animan on Sat Feb 16, 2002 9:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Animan
Posts: 65 |
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Oh yeah...about that collection of Atlantis reviews:
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/movie-1108241/ |
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Tenchi
Posts: 4469 Location: Ottawa... now I'm an ex-Anglo Montrealer. |
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I got the impression from the second Lee Zion article that he still thought some bits of Atlantis were heavily inspired by Nadia.
I did give him my opinion, thinking he'd do a third article on the subject with our responses, but he never did write one. (I know he's an author with a lot of other responsibilities, so I'm not knocking him for not writing a third piece on the subject.) Anyhow, the problem with the second Zion article was that he was only comparing Nadia and Atlantis to 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, with the implication that any similarities to Nadia not present in the Verne book nor the 1954 Disney movie could only have been taken from Nadia. The oversized round glasses of the hero in both stories As Hairston points out in his articles http://utd500.utdallas.edu/~hairston/atlantis.html and http://www.animerica-mag.com/features/nadiavsatlantis.html , glasses are a cartoon cliché used to establish that the main character is a smart guy. As for why the glasses are round, that's just cartoon aesthetics; if animated character has big round eyes, like Jean or Milo, they'd just look weird with square frames. the fact that the dark-skinned heroine wears a jewel around her neck which is connected with the power source of Atlantis I'll just cut-and-paste Hairston's paragraph on Nadia vs. Kida from the Animerica article because I'm lazy, and also because if I write for too long, my login on this board times out and I lose all of what I've written if I don't cut-and-paste to Word and then cut-and-paste back.
Hairston didn't mention it in either piece, but I should add that the 1961 George Pal film Atlantis: The Lost Continent also featured a darkish Atlantean princess in an outfit somewhat similar to Kida (but with less skin showing) and a mysterious crystal power source. and the similarities of 3 members of the Sub’s crew. (Zion linked to Michael Hayden's piece for this one, which now can be found at http://www2.freenet.jp/nadia/nadia_vs_atlantis.html ) Electra vs. Helga I'll quote Hairston again, this time from the chart which accompanied the Animerica piece.
I also think there's a strong Lara Croft influence in Helga myself. The Nautilus's Helmsman vs. Vinny Hairston never dealt with this one, so I'm on my own, but it's the easiest one to debunk. Both characters have dark hair and bushy mustaches. However, Vinny's obviously a caricature of Italian-American actor/comedian Don Novello (sans Father Guido Sarducci wig), who provided Vinny's voice, not some Nadia character so minor I don't think he even had a name. Also, the Nadia vs. Atlantis page by Michael Hayden to which Lee Zion linked called both characters Helmsmen/Explosives Experts to make the characters seem more alike than they really are. Vinny was not the Helmsman of the Ulysses, and I don't recall anything in Nadia which would indicate that the Nautilus's helmsman was an explosives expert too. The Nautilus's Doctor vs. Dr. Sweet This one was a real stretch too. Hayden pointed out that both were bald, and both were dark skinned (but Sweet is a fair bit darker than the Nautilus's doctor), but that's about as far as the similarities go. Sweet is a hulk, while the Nautilus's doctor is this little weedy guy sorta like a psycho version of Gandhi or Dhalsim. And, um... that's about it. I hasten to add that when I used the word "bunk", I was referring primarily to the Hayden article (which Hayden himself admitted was an "experiment in propaganda" after Atlantis was released) and the flame wars on the subject on message boards and not Zion's ANN pieces. |
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LordByronius
ANN Columnist
Posts: 861 Location: Philippe for America! He is five. |
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Dear God, please, LET IT DIE!!!
I thought Atlantis was pretty good, but that really doesn't matter now since Atlantis made Disney lose lots and lots of money. But I agree with Zac that Lilo and Stich looks excellent, and, failing that, Pixar still has two films left under their contract. And then, Mr. Disney, there's always SPIRITED AWAY, nudge nudge, wink wink, cough cough, just release the damn movie already, jeez. |
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10420 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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It has become clear that Disney doesn't own it. In order for them to release it they'd have to buy it first, and they don't seem interested in paying what Miyazaki / Tokuma want for it. |
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Tenchi
Posts: 4469 Location: Ottawa... now I'm an ex-Anglo Montrealer. |
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Well, the budget was $90 million (though I don't think the amount spent on publicity is included) and by December 31st, it had made $84 million domestically, so if you take into account the the international markets and video/DVD sales (especially geeks like me who bought the double disk set), Atlantis should at least break even.
And that's only if Pixar decides not to renew their contract with Disney, and, from what I've read, John Lasseter & company have no desire to make R-rated animated films, so I don't see why they wouldn't renew. Any mild grumblings you will hear from Pixar in the future are just idle threats so that when they renegotiate, Pixar will get a bigger slice of the pie.
Even if Spirited Away got a limited wide release with a modest amount of publicity, like the Royal Tenenbaums, it would likely only make, at best, in the low 8 digits domestically; $20 million perhaps (which would still be 10 times more money than Mononoke made over here). I know one guy, I think it was in the LA Times, gave a B.O. estimate of $250 million (about what Men in Black made), but that's just a pie-in-the-sky pipe dream. |
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Animan
Posts: 65 |
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Tenchi wrote: "And that's only if Pixar decides not to renew their contract with Disney, and, from what I've read, John Lasseter & company have no desire to make R-rated animated films, so I don't see why they wouldn't renew. Any mild grumblings you will hear from Pixar in the future are just idle threats so that when they renegotiate, Pixar will get a bigger slice of the pie."
I'm not too sure about that...check out this article from Animation Blast: http://www.animationblast.com/ 2002-FEB-13 Steve Jobs Lays Down The Law. A couple weeks ago, Disney told stockholders in a conference call that they were looking forward to three more films from Pixar as well as a couple of sequels as part of their current 50/50 production and distribution deal. The day after, Pixar shot back with a statement saying they had no intentions of producing any more sequels for Disney. That's because while Pixar's contract gives them right-of-first-refusal to produce follow-ups, they are under no obligation to do so. Now in Pixar's conference call with investors on February 7, Chairman and CEO Steve Jobs followed up by saying that the three films they're making for Disney are all greenlit and in some stage of production. These films are FINDING NEMO (directed by Andrew Stanton and scheduled for release in summer 2003), Brad Bird's project and John Lasseter's car-themed film. Jobs delivered the final blow when he said that Pixar expects to greenlight (and fund the production of) their first "post-Disney deal" film this summer. Later in the Pixar chat, Jobs went to some lengths to clarify that the Disney/Pixar relationship was on good terms and that they might even continue working together beyond this deal. But as a financial writer on MotleyFool.com recently pointed out, "The bottom line is that Disney needs Pixar far more than Pixar needs Disney right now." I say kudos to Pixar and Steve Jobs for sticking to their guns and continuing to take the risk on original animated features instead of playing the safe sequel game of Disney. |
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