Forum - View topicMost Improved Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13227 |
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Again, how does this outweigh Saber forgiving herself for spoiler[her kingdom destroying itself and all the crap that happened in Fate/Zero?] |
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One-Eye
 Posts: 2261 |
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Ok let's try to bang this out. I hope I don't ramble too much.
Group A Final Fakir, Princess Tutu vs. Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop. Fakir's development is broader, more pronounced and goes a lot further. Daikichi should have lost to Clare previously. It would probably have made everyone more satisfied if he and Taichi had tied instead of group B, so then Fakir could have smashed them both. No doubt in my mind Voting for Fakir, Princess Tutu. Group B Final Chihiro, Spirited Away vs. Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat! vs. Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood This match up is much tougher for me. Spirited Away might have a disadvantage being a movie and not having 24 episodes to develop characters, but Chihiro's development strikes me as complete in context of the story. She was somewhat childish and dependent on her parents. She crosses over into another world has a frightening adventure and leaves more confident and mature. It left me moved, which doesn't happen often. I like Kyoko and Skip Beat quite a bit. She was starting to realize at the end that she didn't think of her initial motivation (revenge) when deep in an acting role. However, she wasn't quite over it and someone else reminded me (might have been vaisaga) that there was something else she hadn't yet sorted out. It was that she had become quite cynical about love and would go into a (comedic) rage--had me giggling--when love or relationships sometimes came up. Unfortunately, the show never got another season and some of her issues didn't get resolved. I've seen maybe 1/2 of FMA? My apologies to FMA fans, but I ended up stopping because I became bored. The same happened after 2-3 episodes of Brotherhood. I just couldn't get into it. Scar seems interesting, but I'm not sure if I want to give FMA another chance. So it comes down to an anime I love, a show I really like, and a show that I was a bit bored with. I think all 3 characters are strong to a point, but maybe not so strong to move on. Tough choice. Its probably not going to make any difference, but I'm going with my emotional choice here and Voting for Chihiro, Spirited Away. Group C Final Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms vs. Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal I think this match up should be more competitive in votes. Youko isn't very likeable in the beginning, but becomes better and starts down the road of becoming at least a competent Queen. I think Kenshin is a bit arrogant and idealistic at first, becomes a murderer, suffers tragedy as a result of his choices and totally changes. Here's the tough part. I think Youko has the edge in terms of the broadness of her improvement, but Kenshin might be stronger in execution. I recall Trust and Betrayal being very contained, with no wasted scenes or moments. Kenshin's development felt much more natural, whereas in 12K many of the characters improvement could feel abrupt at times to me. I think I'll conditionally give it to Kenshin. Voting for Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal. Group D Final Simon, Gurren Lagann vs. Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero Last round I voted for Simon. I just felt Rue improved too little too late, even though I prefer Princess Tutu to Gurren Lagann. I think he had enough improvement points to move up a spot. However, this is not the case here. The creator's take Gunbuster's "Hard work and Guts!" philosophy and throw out the most important part being the hard work. It then all becomes about guts, yelling and willing yourself to win. This is pretty shallow to me and the improvement doesn't always feel organic. I mean it happens, but it feels more like a check list being marked off. I might not agree with all of errinundra's criticism's about the show, but I do find it problematic that most of the situations in Gurren Lagann are solved with violence. For example, Simon has a crisis moment of confidence and Kamina responds by punching him to make it better. Rusio in a fit of despair is about spoiler[to commit suicide] and Simon pops out of his mech to wallop him. You know because hitting depressed people makes them feel better about themselves. Besides the over reliance on violence I think that part of the problem is that they thought that they could borrow some of the formula from FLCL (and other shows too). The wackiness, the reflective moments, the coming of age elements that to me were well balanced in FLCL don't really work well here in this story. Its just shallow and I think weakens the story and character development. Saber's situation is more complex and I think better set-up. Here is a courageous, dignified, skilled woman who sacrifices her gender, her identity, her personal desires to become a king for the sake of her people. All of this is done with the best of intentions but at the cost of what makes us human. Her self-denial and sacrifices make her a cold and distant king. None of this helps her save her kingdom. Imho as a heroic spirit she makes the same mistakes as she did as a king. She seeks to undo her past, undo her fate so that someone else might succeed where she feels she failed. I think she's too lawful, too self-sacrificing, too extreme in her noble ideals. All done with good intentions to serve her people. Its ironic where noble intentions sometimes leads us. The rest has already been stated before. Saber improves, she sees Shiro as her partner not just a master, starts to be more than a tool of war, starts to experience love which impacts how she sees herself--perhaps that she is also a woman and not just a knight and most importantly comes to terms with her past. She accepts her fate and her spoiler[true death]. One way of looking at Saber's story is that its about regrets and learning to let go of them. I think that the Fate series also has its issues, but character wise I think Saber's story is deeper than Simon's. Yep, Voting for Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero. |
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mow123
 Posts: 339 |
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Group A Final
Fakir, Princess Tutu vs. Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop Fakir as other has mentioned Daikichi is outclassed here, and only has novelty to rely on. At this stage of the game, this is insufficient, and Fakir has impressive merits of his own especially at the end of the series. Group B Final Chihiro, Spirited Away vs. Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat! vs. Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood Scar's improvement of perspective is the most impressive. Kyoko gains assertiveness, but has revenge and anger issues preventing the improvement from being as comparable as Scar's improvement. Chihiro overcomes the bratiness, but that improvement pales in graveness to Scar's transformation. Group C Final Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms vs. Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal Youko's transformation from insecure highschooler to wise leader outclasses Kenshin's quenching of his murderous desires. Youko's improvement is on many more levels. Group D Final Simon, Gurren Lagann vs. Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero Not voting for Saber mainly because she was fundamentally a good person who was wracked with guilt and coping by being emotionless. Simon also starts out as a good person, but unlike Saber he has no assertion and lacks any kind of power to to fight the tragedies he faces when we first meet Simon as a character. Saber commands much more respect than Simon does at the start of the story. The start and end states with Simon are more impressive even with the lapse. Some might say Saber's infatuation was also a lapse in judgment considering the situation she's in, and I would agree. Last edited by mow123 on Mon May 13, 2013 10:23 am; edited 2 times in total |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Just doublechecking that you did intend to vote for Simon here? The reasoning doesn't make it 100% clear, especially since I'm pretty sure that in the above sentence you wrote Simon when you meant Saber in one instance, though I don't know which. |
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mow123
Posts: 339 |
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I intended to vote for Simon, but I just made a lot of typos since I was extremely exhausted when I made that post. I wasn't sleeping well, working long hours, and then participated in stressful gaming tournaments when I got home. Was kind of out of it when I made that post, and I should have really edited it first. |
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Unicorn_Blade
 Posts: 1153 Location: UK |
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Group A Final
Fakir, Princess Tutu vs. Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop Fakir to me seems a bit more... intense? In a positive way. The development is a bit deeper; Daikichi has his merits, but he is not the stronger competitor here. Group B Final Chihiro, Spirited Away vs. Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat! vs. Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood A bit hard to go agains my nomination for Kyoko, but it is going to be Scar all the way through. Chihiro cannot even hold a candle to Scar's development, which happened on so many different levels and changed lives of so many people. Group C Final Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms vs. Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal Youko Nakajima sounds like the stronger candidate, and Kenshin never really impressed me all that much when I was watching Trust and betrayal... Group D Final Simon, Gurren Lagann vs. Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero[/quote] Arguments for Simon convinced me a bit more than those for Simon. |
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Keichitsu0305
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Group A Final
Fakir, Princess Tutu Starts out as a jerk, learns humility, and ends up as a likable hero in the finale. Group B Final Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat! In the long run, I don't see any of the three winning against Fakir. Chihiro's improvement was subtle but, she learned a life lesson and moved on. Scar, I can see him winning this round, but, for me, I'll vote for Kyoko for trying to move on with her life. Group C Final Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms Not much to say except it's pretty obvious. Group D Final Simon, Gurren Lagann Saying that Simon "solves his problems with violence" in a Super Robot Mecha series is almost like Sailor Moon solving her problems using magic in a Magical Girl series; that's more of a complaint towards the genre more than how or why the character did so in the first place. Yes, Simon spoiler[punched out Rossiu when he was about to commit suicide.] This is also the same show where Leeron pointed out that the spoiler[Cathedral Terra was "Spacing" i.e a liquefied/physical version of space.] The series is so ridiculously hyper that seeing the hero save the one person who was trying to overcome him will, of course, be portrayed in the most overactive manner possible. Kamina did the same thing for Simon when he needed the will to fight so, as a friend, Simonspoiler[ punched out] Rossiu to show that A. you are a competent political leader so, stop comparing yourself to me, B. there are people out there who need you (i.e. Kinon, his adviser) so, pull yourself together, and C. everyone makes mistakes but, don't think that spoiler[killing yourself will solve any of that.] Rossiu felt guilty about spoiler[sacrificing so many people so that a few could live when the moon was falling yet, Simon and team Gurren managed to save everyone.] Simon wasn't going to let his friend spoiler[die by his own hand.] Not when Rossiu spoiler[tried to protect others when Simon wasn't able to think of anything right away.] So, I don't believe that violence solves everything, but I commend that at least Simon cared enough for Rossiu to prevent his friend spoiler[from killing himself.] |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13227 |
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I think you meant to say "Saber" in one of those instances 
That's not really what we're talking about. Look at when the Mugen first showed up instead. Does Simon approach it cautiously, perhaps try to lead it away from the city? No he just rushes in and attacks. The consequences speak for themselves. |
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zawa113
 Posts: 7358 |
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And what did he do the second time? He took a bunch of hits to prevent it from hitting the city. It was a new enemy and no one had any idea that it spoiler[would explode into a million little explodey pieces] because that's not exactly normal is it? And it was already actively attacking the city iirc, luring away didn't seem an option either. Perhaps he should've been more cautious, yes, but he learned from his mistake which is what I think is important here. Ok, so I know some people have complained of the very very epilogue end of the series, but I honestly think it only works for him. spoiler[Sometimes a hero needs to know when it's the next generation's turn and that the next generation won't be able to do anything for themselves if they don't start now while the older generation steps aside to mentor]. Not to mention that he was still helping people in his own way. To me, it shows he really wasn't in it for the glory, so while he changed into a hero, he was still humble in the end, and I think that's just awesome of him. Keeping good qualities can be important too. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13227 |
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But he didn't need to spoiler[abandon everybody and become a hobo to do that.] |
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One-Eye
Posts: 2261 |
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The execution of Simon's development never really makes me feel for him. I'm never really invested in him, he feels two dimensional. On the other hand, I may have problems with the Fate series and F/SN in particular but I own F/SN because I liked Saber as a character and like her more after F/Z. I find her tale deeper and more tragic. In the end she really didn't get what she originally wanted and she had to let go of her original goals, which is a tough thing to do and its part of her improvement. She might have discovered love, but spoiler[its bittersweet because she can't stay with Shiro] and she has to accept that along with her past. Having to accept these things for the prideful and stubborn Saber? Well, that was improvement and it made me feel for the character. |
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rosebrook11
 Posts: 1181 |
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Group A Final
Fakir, Princess Tutu vs. Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop Fakir gets my vote. I think his improvement is a lot stronger than Daikichi who I don't think should have won his last match. Group B Final Chihiro, Spirited Away vs. Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat! vs. Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood I love all three of these characters, but Chihiro gets my vote. It's not just about maturity. The movie implies that before the events of the movie she was very lazy and had pretty much never worked a day in her life. Group C Final Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms vs. Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal Youko Nakajima from what I've heard about her, she seems to be the stronger candidate. It sounds like one intense maturation process. Group D Final Simon, Gurren Lagann vs. Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero One of the character traits that I think defined Simon in the first part of his series was his curiosity. He enjoyed doing the digging in his town and loved the little treasures that he would find. That curiosity is abolished in the second half of the series and he becomes less of a charcter and becomes less interesting that he was in the first half of the series. Saber has much more merits to her change and it makes her a more dynamic and interesting character rather than less. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Group A Final
Fakir, Princess Tutu vs. Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop Voting for: Fakir At the start of the series Fakir is an arrogant jerk, domineers over Mytho almost to the point of psychological abusiveness (if Mytho had any personality at that point), and later is revealed to have a nearly crippling fear of his own inadequacy and mortality. Over the course of the series, we see him become kinder and gentler, realize his attitude towards Mytho isn't actually helpful, and overcome his fear. Group B Final Chihiro, Spirited Away vs. Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat vs. [i]Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood Voting for: Scar I feel that Scar makes the greatest change out of the three of them. Group C Final Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms vs. Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal Voting for: Youko I really should have made time to watch 12 Kingdoms since this tournament started so I'd have a decent reason to vote this way here. As it is, the 1 vote for Kenshin so far admits it's a close call, so I don't feel bad about not voting for him. I've heard enough about 12 Kingdoms in other tournaments to know since nominations that she'd be a finalist. Group D-21 Simon, Gurren Lagann vs. Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero Voting for: Simon
If I felt Saber had changed because Shiro treated her as an equal, than maybe I could support her on account of emotional growth, but it came across more as condescending. He tries to prevent her from fighting not because he sees that's what she needs emotionally, but because he's self-righteous. His devaluation of her is somehow the right path to her enlightenment. I can't buy that.
Yes, he did. spoiler[He was raised up to power over the time skip because he was an iconic hero, and the populous looked to him to lead. Doing so again on an even greater scale would only have increased his reputation, and he would again have been called to a position he knew he was ill equipped to handle. Furthermore, his "abandoning" of his friends didn't leave them any less well equipped to face their new problems. Or we could just throw this right back at Saber and say she abandoned Shiro after they saved the world at the end of FSN. Zero net gain for your case there.] |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13227 |
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Um... What? You seem to be implying that she just sat back and let Shiro do all the work, which is completely false. It was not about one protecting the other, it was about both of them protecting each other. Saber calls Shiro her shealth, the person she can go to, put her sword away, and not have to be a warrior. That doesn't mean she won't take out her sword and do what needs to be done. In the end they both trusted in each other to fight their respective opponents without being overprotective of each other as they were before.
Um, no, you can't. It's not like Saber had a choice in the matter. |
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getchman
 Space CowboyPosts: 9120 Location: Bedford, NH |
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Group A Final
Fakir, Princess Tutu vs. Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop Voting for Fakir since everyone is saying he's the strong candidate Group B Final Chihiro, Spirited Away vs. Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat! vs. Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood Voting for Scar. from savage murderer to priest, I believe he is the most improved of the three Group C Final Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms vs. Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal from what little I've seen of 12K and the overwhelming support she has, my vote goes to Youko Group D Final Simon, Gurren Lagann vs. Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero[/quote] I like both characters and this is tough, but I'm going to vote for Saber. Vaisaga's argument for her nicely sums up why |
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