Forum - View topicBleach Manga Takes 1-Week Break Due To Author's Sudden Illness
|
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||||||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
danpmss
 Posts: 766 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||
We are talking about the kinds of magazines overall, not their demographic (even though the discussion is focusing in long running SHOUNEN manga). |
||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||
|
BadNewsBlues
Posts: 5921 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||
The point was your generalization of Shonen anime and manga as mindless trash comes off as incredibly shortsighted and needlessly harsh.....the fact that you just also played it off as Shonen material is incapable of inserting depth into their stories or even quality also comes off looking weird too. Last edited by BadNewsBlues on Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||
|
Somewhere
Posts: 361 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Trying to clean up a bit, since his complaint strikes me as having a malformed base. I can't really wrap my mind around it to form a more direct response, since I feel that the thinking would go in a completely different direction given a correct foundation. |
||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||
|
YamiWheeler
Posts: 97 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Just because you like them isn't evidence to refute my point. Even Naruto/Bleach have their fans that will defend them to the death. That being said, I haven't seen any of those, and don't intend to. I learned my lesson after being stung by these types of series.
Once again, you liking them doesn't mean that "the nature of the publication means nothing."
And Naruto and Bleach are my examples. So what? Either way, we have subjective views, and just because you can offer examples of when it (supposedly) didn't happen doesn't mean it's not true. Yes, you're right, it doesn't necessarily get worse progressively, but to say publication means nothing is narrow minded.
Yes, and therefore "shonen anime/manga" are series that target that demographic. What's your point? I never said that shonen series in particular had a specific publication schedule, but I was singling out the ones that do, like Naruto/Bleach, which I have a problem with. Last edited by YamiWheeler on Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||
|
danpmss
Posts: 766 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||
No worries about that and enjoy the discussion haha |
||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||
|
YamiWheeler
Posts: 97 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||
My first post wasn't clear. I wasn't referring to shonen as a whole, but to series like Bleach and Naruto that I believe are "depthless" and "mindless." When I said that the anime world needs to move on, I was specifically referring to the trend of shonen anime that gain widespread popularity and go on forever and ever as a cash cow, quickly losing any real creative offering they give to the world. TBH, I didn't really intend for anyone to react so defensively to my comment.
Seems to me that the problem has less to do with the foundation of my complaint being "malformed" and more to do with you being unable to understand it, or misunderstanding it completely. Honestly, I don't think it's that difficult to comprehend. |
||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||
Nonaka Machine Gun B
 Posts: 819 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||
|
I feel like there's no succinct way to have this discussion. I'd like to be brief, but it's always rooted in the rhetoric of "It started sucking after such-and-such arc" and then you have to go to this arbitrary point and outline it's positives/negatives. But when you really look at this series, it's not doing anything fundamentally different than when it started. It's just... slower. And I guess that's everybody's problem.
I haven't done my research and don't want to make assumptions, but you might have to take the anime into account for the insane backlash. The Bount arc is, of course, not very popular, and that's just not only in Western internet circles. BLEACH's TV ratings regularly ranked very high throughout the Soul Society arc, then the filler material started, and it absolutely never recovered in terms of viewership(It lasted to 366 episodes due to high disc sales, but that's another discussion). So, you have this anime adaptation, and it's incredibly solid for a shonen property. Poor animation days are(were) few and far inbetween, most of the things that made the original manga fun are still there, and pretty much everyone, fan or not, is going to tell you the music is amazing. But then things start slowing down. We get further removed from the original ongoing storyline. These new characters aren't incredibly interesting. And it goes on for a year. People very openly got tired of this, and thus you have "manga bandwagoners"; people who can't wait to get back to the story they thought they were following. But then the manga comes out once a week, and it's essentially a third, possibly even less, of the content one anime episode brings. You may also have people coming into the series as a whole very late, so perhaps you binged either the manga or anime, and caught yourself up. Now you've got a wait, and Kubo's pacing becomes more clear to you. (My earlier remark about not doing my research; I was not around for the initial wave of BLEACH fans, that most likely coincided with Naruto fans during the reign of fansubbing group Dattebayo, so I kind of don't want to speak out of turn about things I wasn't there for. Cursory Googling gives you some glimpse of what is was like; it seems most people were watching the anime, filler material kicked in, and then you had swarms of folks flocking to the manga. Kind of fun to look at ancient posts on Bleach Asylum, Naruto Fan, or MangaHelpers, or perhaps a shipping-centric LiveJournal community. BLEACH is old enough that people made shrine-blogs for specific characters, an incredibly late '90s/early '00s thing.) All this outside perspective only adds up so high, though. You can't ignore what is going with BLEACH itself. The Arrancar arc is very long. Kubo's official answer to that is: "The characters were popular, so we kept marching on." I buy that, given that the series regularly ranked in the top 3 spots of Weekly Shonen Jump's table-of-contents pretty much until the Lost Agent arc started. Volume sales were also incredibly healthy; 500K+ the first week easy. Everyone accuses this arc of killing the series, but 2006-2009 is very clearly the peak here in terms of success. Regardless, fan reaction is, while not universally loathsome, reaching a fever pitch. Being anti-BLEACH became a thing, and still is a thing. My only ascertainment of how this happened is that Kubo fell in love with detours. Not of the Pierrot filler variety, but detours and breaks from the central "goal" of the story all the same. When the Arrancar arc begins, people are still open to what's being offered, but there are apprehensions. You'll see many accusations of the story repeating itself, despite much fan love for folks like Grimmjow and Ulquiorra. And once they've become popular, they're given the backseat to watch other characters do things. This is where I believe most people are tuning out. If we want to get specific, it's probably right around when Renji and Uryuu are fighting Szayelaporro Granz. This fight not only is more or less removed from the main goal of going to Hueco Mundo(finding Orihime) it actually takes a comical intermission so we can check back in on our lead, Ichigo, and then returns with a new ally, Mayuri Kurotsuchi. Things are certainly happening, but the story doesn't necessarily move. Orihime is still in a cell. So why are we seeing this? Why does Nel need such a big backstory? Why do we need to see each individual henchman fight? Because the story doesn't matter. There's no way not to be or sound pretentious about this. It's the characters that matter. It's their lives, and their livelihoods. I suppose I can only speak for myself, but this formula remains potent and interesting to me because philosophy and ideologies control everything. Everything we do is in some way, no matter how small, connected to what we believe to be important. What we've personally decided and deemed is important. That's what every character in BLEACH is fighting over; the right to live as they want. They're determined and they're passionate and they're not going to let themselves be undermined or stomped on. It's the money shot of virtually every great moment; somebody offers their last plea or gasp for air right before they've lost the fight. Kubo establishes the hurt these characters feel with aplomb. The goofy powers and outrageous battle scenes are the window dressing. Take those away, and BLEACH is just two people, at a time, talking about life. Whether or not to adhere to the law even when you don't agree with it, or if it's hurting someone you love; whether or not there's any meaning in life at all; could you have done something else to have prevented a past tragedy; are you being honest with yourself about the path you've chosen and why you're doing it. The series is not always completely graceful about it, but that in and of itself is charming. Kubo has made comments in the past that when the series began, he made concessions with editors, but when the popularity(and the money) started skyrocketing, he was allowed more freedom to draw what he wanted. Obviously, this is most apparent in the pacing. Kubo is not the least bit concerned if one chapter keeps people satisfied for the week. He's not gaining new fans, which is very obvious with how the series ranks now. The basics are still there, but it's not going at a clip anymore. His is a luxury that a new series from a young author just coming off of a cancelled work in 2001 doesn't have. I spoke earlier about fans coming in late and binging the archives, and thus coloring their impressions, but even week-to-week, BLEACH moved much faster in the beginning. I can concede that it's not unreasonable for people to be expecting more of what they were given to start with, but everything builds off of everything else. Clearly, the more casual and cavalier you were with BLEACH's early days the less of a chance you were willing to give Kubo to see where the ship is sailing to. And that may seem like a trite observation; "super-fans were willing to put up with more bullshit"; but why would Kubo just abandon what's working? Last edited by Nonaka Machine Gun B on Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||
|
danpmss
Posts: 766 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Your argument is that since you didn't read any of those, you can simply generalize as you please since you read two long running manga named Naruto and Bleach? That's it? Ok then. Oh, btw, I gave you objective reasons for why each of my examples are actually valid, and not just my opinion (to not quote all my points about plot devices in this whole thread). If you have any valid arguments, do like I did and actually show objectively why any of my example is invalid. Otherwise just close your own mind in ignorance while closing your eyes to the fact you didn't read every single manga ever to generalize long running manga like that.
Same goes here. If you want, I can also exemplify for both Hajime no Ippo and JoJo just how much character development, world building and overall plot progression and narrative evolution each of the series got in better than the earlier story elements.
Except I did made objective examples about the structure and content of each series I discussed (not counting the additional examples above). You are full of yourself and actually thinks this is a matter of different opinion. Try to actually analyze the works you are discussing about before entering a discussion. This isn't 4chan, were people call something shit and just disappear of the debate. PS: What is narrow minded is to generalize every single long running shounen as a pile of crap having read only two long running manga to mention as an example (Bleach not even being a bad title overall, and Naruto only becoming shit by the last arc, since up to that point it had a rich and well detailed world building, overall nice messages, twists, character interaction and development, besides also having some bullshit in the middle of it all, especially in some of the battles). You sir, are an hypocrite. PS2: I can go all night analysing and discussing Bleach in here (recently re-read the whole manga anyway), but I humbly ask people to at least read with attention everything before getting all acid about it (not even that bad with the pacing if read-throught in a marathon, btw). I just mention in the thread the good and the bad part of it with examples |
||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||
|
YamiWheeler
Posts: 97 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Your opinion of aspects of the manga you've read is not "objective," stop trying to use them as evidence. So, you think that the only way to have an opinion of long running manga is to read every single manga ever? That's a pretty flawed scale. Thankfully, I don't abide by your logic.
Why would you do that when I haven't read them? What would that accomplish?
The problem here is that you seem to have gotten personally offended that I don't think much of particular shonen series. That's tough for you. I could sit here and waste my time analyzing every aspect of Naruto and Bleach to convince you, but who really cares what you think? I certainly don't. Especially not if you think you have to dedicate your life to shonen manga just to have an opinion on it.
Two, most recently. I've seen/read Naruto/Bleach, and other long-running shonen series like InuYasha, DBZ, etc. in the past, and wasted enough of my time with them before realizing that they are not what I'm looking for in stories. I'm not going to read every manga ever just to satisfy some random shonen fanboy on the internet. FYI, Naruto became shit long, long before the last arc (I'm talking 2007), and Bleach has been a bad title for years. If your opinion of these titles is supposed to convince me that long running shonen titles are worth more than I think they are, you just lost the battle.
Okay?
I'm sure you have all the time in the world to spend reading trash, as you've demonstrated. For me, once was enough. Last edited by YamiWheeler on Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||
JDude042
 Posts: 261 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||
|
I used to love Bleach right around when the anime first came out in Japan and I found out about it through fansubs. After the Soul Society Arc ended and they had to start doing filler episodes is when I noticed a huge decline in quality and my interest started to wane. I picked up the manga at the beginning of the Arrancar arc and have been reading it as it's came out for several years now. While I certainly wouldn't consider it a favorite of mine, it's usually entertaining enough for me to enjoy, and I can't really complain considering I'm reading scans online for free. To be fair though, it can seem ridiculous that every fight is two guys fighting, then here's my secret technique, other guy brushes it off and trolls his opponent, only for said opponent to pull out his next trump card, leave his opponent flabbergasted and so on and so on until one of them finally bites the dust. I know... I know... I'm not hating on it, far from it, but it's become an extremely predictable and repetitive formula. Now it's weird because I love One Piece, but it doesn't feel that way to me. Maybe it's just the way Kubo presents things when it comes to fights in Bleach. The fights in One Piece just don't feel predictable and stuck to a strict and by the book formula like Bleach.
|
||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||
|
danpmss
Posts: 766 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||
How is it not "objective"? Subjective is a matter of opinion and humor (anyone has their own tastes for things). If you want to present objectiveness in the discussion, you must first start mentioning all of the elements in a story and how they are composed/executed in the whole context. You should learn more about the words you are using in here if you really think there's no way of being objective when discussing a story. Just like I said, instead of only saying "it sucks because I say so", try presenting (without nitpicking) all of the elements you could analyze in the whole thing, the good and the bad, and show your conclusion about them, like anyone the can actually argue about a story does. And yes, the ONLY moment you can say EVERY SINGLE THING of a certain something sucks, is when you see, watch, judge with your own eyes and arguments EVERY SINGLE ONE of them and prove your point with your own words. Otherwise, you keep your stupid generalization for yourself.
For starters, more examples that your statement is wrong, and that I have evidence of that (and you just need to google it and read by yourself to see why). And if you actually have any arguments against them, THEN you can actually criticize them based on what you read and thought about it. Which is not what you are doing right now, judging every single long running series as main stream garbage without even reading all of them (point explained above).
Nah, I just don't like people that goes all of their way generalizing about things they don't even know that much about, while, full of themselves, actually think they are right and don't give any proper argument, and continue unstoppably to make walls of text that don't justify at all their points. Feels like when people start saying every single Muslim is a terrorist, when they don't even know every single Muslin in the world to say that with their face straight. They just sound like ignorant not-so-nice-people wanting to provoke a flame bait war as trolls... except that they actually think that what they say is true LOL See where I'm getting with your bullshit about generalization now?
You judge all your experience from some few titles and want to generalize all of the manga of the same kind of publication. You know just how many long running manga exist in Japan? More than thousands of titles. And you say because YOU read 4-5 whatever, you have a valid point by judging all of them. Just go back to my example above before talking bullshit again. If you want to convince me of something about a story, like any person that actually discuss about them properly anywhere in the world, try offering actual arguments besides saying it "became shit". Like, giving your reasons, and giving your points and thoughts about the overall plot. Otherwise YOU prove NOTHING, and, just like it was so far, YOU lose the discussion for not having arguments other than blatant offenses without fundament.
There it is, what I was just talking about. And of course, more fallacies (Nice -intentional or not- "Argumentum ad hominem" right there, pal). I work with the translations of said material (and books), so of course I have plenty of time to read. You instead should read more to actually understand how to make a proper argument. Have a nice day (if you reply with more bullshit I will just ignore and let some good soul in the thread teach you some more about debate in my place, hopefully). |
||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||
|
dark13
Posts: 562 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||
animenewsnetwork.com/news/2012-08-03/bleach-manga-takes-1-issue-break-due-to-health animenewsnetwork.com/news/2015-01-14/bleach-manga-goes-on-hiatus-next-week-due-to-illness/.83254 animenewsnetwork.com/daily-briefs/2015-04-16/bleach-manga-takes-1-week-break-due-to-author-illness/.87177 and I will add this as a bonus animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2015-09-05/bleach-creator-tite-kubo-suddenly-leaves-twitter/.92476 only one time out of all of those hiatus is he actual sick and in the hospital the other times are just word of mouth But your a bleach fan Logic just goes over your head so why wast time anyways ? might as well not replay to you since your fanboy mode will take over I only replay when you have something that I can actually believe tho this manga series is already dying anyways so I guess I have no real reason to be here ( also One piece is a legit manga by the way ) |
||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||
|
theNightster
Posts: 1328 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||
......so you're mad at the guy for getting sick 3 times, and him quitting twitter had nothing to do with people's opinion on his manga, Kubo is a human being and human beings get sick so don't be a dick, also your comment just screams "I'm a One piece fanboy" and it comes off as obnoxious |
||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||
|
jdnation
Posts: 1998 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||
|
I'm following it just to get closure, but am somewhat enjoying it I guess...
I personally hope it gets another anime adaptation from the ground up. Kind of like FMA Brotherhood or something. Get rid of the non-canon filler, cut out the fat, and quicken the pace. That would make for an awesome action series. Better animation would help too. But I dunno if that's viable given what seems to be a drop off in popularity. It'd be nice though if they went the Hellsing OVA route. I think it's doable to trim the content down into maybe 10 high quality 2-hour films. Maybe a little more if need be. |
||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||
|
theNightster
Posts: 1328 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||
there is still a possibility, the show was still a big for TV tokyo even with it's drop in popularity, we just can't say it for sure |
||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group