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Answerman - Why Are DVDs and Blu-rays Sold As Combo Packs?


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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:02 pm Reply with quote
Shiflan wrote:
My point is simply that given today's prices there seems little reason to hang on to DVD. What's the motivation to do so? To save a buck or two per disc and avoid buying a $30 player? If my budget was tight enough that a couple of bucks mattered then I don't think I'd be buying non-essentials like entertainment at all.

I don't have a problem with old formats. Heck, the majority of my anime is on laserdisc of all things. My point is that if you're making a new purchase for a title that's in print and you have the choice between BD and DVD there seems to be little reason, other than stubbornness, to choose DVD these days. I'm sure some people have special circumstances that make that choice different for them, and that's fine. But generally speaking the choice of DVD over BD seems odd. Will people be able to keep playing DVDs after the format is dead? Of course, just the same as I manage to keep playing LDs long after that format died. But why make things more difficult on yourself when you don't have to? It's one thing to be forced to use an old format for out-of-print collectables you can't get any other way, or if you already have a large extant library that you don't want to (or can't afford to) repurchase. But when you are making new purchases all that goes out the window. When you can choose between two formats which are very close in price but one has obvious advantages in terms of future-proofing as well as quality, it seems illogical not to choose that one.


Oh, people will hang on to using DVDs over Blu-Rays if they don't consider watching things in HD a high priority. I explained it myself: Our (as in me and the other people in this household) TV can play HD, but it's been broken for over a decade because no one in the house considers it a big enough deal to get it repaired or buy a new TV. Its SD still works fine. We're okay with that.

We're not going to turn down an offer for a free TV or to get it repaired with no catches if it means we can use HD again, but for now, even if it's one cent more, it's not worth it for us.

I hope you can understand the logic here. We don't dislike HD. We just go for the cheaper option. When it comes to home video, we are downstream consumers, while you are an upstream consumer. Everyone is a downstream consumer (or nonconsumer) in some things. I don't think anyone is an upstream consumer in everything they purchase. I am an upstream consumer in some other things. I have a $5,000 pinball machine in my garage, for instance. You likely would not be willing to spend that much on a pinball machine, but I would, and I did.

The reason we lost our HD but chose not to spend money to get it back is similar to why wealthy people would eat at McDonald's instead of some Michelin-starred place. They're satisfied with what they have. They don't feel the need to spend any more money on it.
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Kruszer



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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Location: Minnesota, USA
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:46 pm Reply with quote
I like combo packs personally. I use the Blu-ray version for the big TV and surround sound system at home, and DVD version for taking on trips since my laptop only has a DVD drive.
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Shiflan



Joined: 29 Jul 2015
Posts: 418
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:03 am Reply with quote
Alan45 wrote:
@Shiflan

I agree with you that people should be moving to Blu-ray if they are able to. I just don't think that backward compatibility will disappear anytime soon. If new players can be sold as cheap as $30 the parts necessary to maintain such compatibility can't be all that expensive. I think it is more likely that a new format will replace Blu-ray before that happens.


I agree that the backward compatibility won't disappear soon. It will likely take many years. But even that is enough reason to prefer BD, given that the premium one has to pay for BD is small.

As for the cost of the parts? Yes, I'm sure the cost of the parts is fairly cheap, but that hasn't stopped this sort of thing from happening in the past. As I mentioned in my earlier post you can pick any piece of consumer electronics (TV, video game console, DVD player, whatever...) and find cheaper components which have been dropped as time goes on. If a company is willing to drop an audio connector which costs just a couple cents wholesale then a laser assembly which costs a couple bucks is easily on the chopping block. The only question is when. It will probably take a while, but at some point it will happen.
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Shiflan



Joined: 29 Jul 2015
Posts: 418
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:29 am Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:

Oh, people will hang on to using DVDs over Blu-Rays if they don't consider watching things in HD a high priority. I explained it myself: Our (as in me and the other people in this household) TV can play HD, but it's been broken for over a decade because no one in the house considers it a big enough deal to get it repaired or buy a new TV. Its SD still works fine. We're okay with that.


Yep, I understand that completely. But that was not the argument I was making. My point was that even if you don't care about HD vs. SD video quality, Blu-rays still offer another unrelated benefit of being more future-proof because they are the more modern format whose support is likely to be maintained longer. The higher resolution might not be a selling point to you, and that's totally OK, but wouldn't the longer lifetime of the format be one? Especially when the cost difference is marginal?

Quote:
Everyone is a downstream consumer (or nonconsumer) in some things. I don't think anyone is an upstream consumer in everything they purchase. I am an upstream consumer in some other things. I have a $5,000 pinball machine in my garage, for instance. You likely would not be willing to spend that much on a pinball machine, but I would, and I did.


Agreed 100%. Clearly everyone has their own personal preferences and priorities. Some people care about video quality and are willing to pay more for it. Other people don't care. And that's totally fine. But those sorts of preferences aren't really relevant here. If someone is buying video on physical media like a VHS tape, DVD, Blu-Ray, or whatever else, that implies they want a hardcopy of that video so they can watch it again at their leisure. Given the goal is to maintain a library for future watching, would it not make more sense to purchase the format which will maintain that watchability for a longer period of time? For example, suppose you need new tires for your car. You go tire shopping and the dealer tells you:
Brand X tires cost $50 and are warranted for 30,000 miles.
Brand Y tires cost slightly more at $53 but are warranted for twice as long.
All other things being equal, wouldn't it make more sense buy brand Y?

In other words, even if someone doesn't care about the video quality improvement, the longer lifetime of BD seems to make it a much more logical choice for new purchases. Why buy a format that's already on the way out when the format which is on the way up is not significantly costlier?
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Suena



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 289
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:49 pm Reply with quote
I almost never buy Sentai anime. Why? They don't sell BD/DVD combo packs. Well, they do, but they're the super limited editions that cost more than buying a BD and DVD release separately.

Just the other day I needed to get a few screengrabs from a show I own. Normally I like to watch the BD version, but because my set also has the DVD, I was able to pop the disk into my computer and get them. The alternative would have been to take photos of my TV screen, which always look awful. Also, it's almost impossible to scrub through an episode on a TV. Having a playbar (as you do in a computer app) is basically necessary is there's several exact scenes you need a screenshot for.

Maybe someday I'll have a BD player for my computer, but that will likely be years in the future.
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Aphasial
Exempt from Grammar Rules


Joined: 08 Aug 2010
Posts: 122
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:59 am Reply with quote
xchampion wrote:
I don't even feel bad saying this. How can people still watch or hell even prefer DVDs over blu-rays? Y'all have had 13 years to switch over. HDTVs and bluray players are so cheap you can afford them on minimum wage. There really are no excuses at this point. The only excuse is if you switched to strictly digital and have forsaken hardcopies in my opinion.


Until two years ago I had a 32" CRT display in another room that I would occasionally watch things on. Although I did eventually switch to a standalone BR/DVD player vs just DVD there was never much of a reason to use BR content there as DVDs were still beautiful on it.

At this point, I'm buying Combo packs because (as the article indicates) these are usually the better/collector editions. I'll buy BR-only if there's more than a $10 price difference or so, but I like having a second version in a different format, even if it's an inferior (but sufficient) one. Options are good, right?
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Just Passing Through



Joined: 04 Apr 2011
Posts: 276
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:55 am Reply with quote
There's been a movement to retro tech of late, with more and more people buying vinyl, digging out their old mixtapes. I think there might be a niche market for retro TV technology. Let's face it, DVDs look best on CRTs, native 480 or 576i, and there is the added fact that 90% of broadcast TV is still SD resolution. The latter is nigh on unwatchable on even a 32" LCD panel.

TVs don't exactly take up half the room and weigh over 100 kilos anymore, and many households have one screen per room, so I think there is a niche market for SD TVs. LCD looks pants no matter what, but SD through phosphor techology looks watchable, as the old 720 Plasma displays proved.

I wouldn't mind a 28-32" OLED SD only panel,with all the legacy connections, SCART, composite etc, maybe with a CRT mode in software to get it looking as close to the old experience as possible.
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Shiflan



Joined: 29 Jul 2015
Posts: 418
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:22 am Reply with quote
Just Passing Through wrote:
There's been a movement to retro tech of late, with more and more people buying vinyl, digging out their old mixtapes. I think there might be a niche market for retro TV technology.


That is certainly possible. I have a few friends who are really into retro gaming, and in that hobby CRTs are still king, especially the Sony Trinitron studio monitors. Retro gamers will pay a great deal of money for those since they were the highest resolution CRT sets you could get, and they also have component input (RGB). Old consoles like the NES and SNES are easily modded to output component video and the result looks absolutely amazing.

I have no idea how large that market might be, but I suspect it could be significant given the size of the retro gaming market these days.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:27 pm Reply with quote
Shiflan wrote:

Yep, I understand that completely. But that was not the argument I was making. My point was that even if you don't care about HD vs. SD video quality, Blu-rays still offer another unrelated benefit of being more future-proof because they are the more modern format whose support is likely to be maintained longer. The higher resolution might not be a selling point to you, and that's totally OK, but wouldn't the longer lifetime of the format be one? Especially when the cost difference is marginal?...Given the goal is to maintain a library for future watching, would it not make more sense to purchase the format which will maintain that watchability for a longer period of time?


How true that is will depend on knowledge that neither you or I know, as a format will continue to stay on the market for as long as it's profitable. If there are many others like me for whom resolution is not worth anything unless it's free, and Blu-Rays continue to be priced higher than DVDs, then that means the DVD format will be staying for the time being.

That, I think, is where we disagree though. Doesn't seem like you encounter many such people, whereas I do.

Shiflan wrote:
That is certainly possible. I have a few friends who are really into retro gaming, and in that hobby CRTs are still king, especially the Sony Trinitron studio monitors. Retro gamers will pay a great deal of money for those since they were the highest resolution CRT sets you could get, and they also have component input (RGB). Old consoles like the NES and SNES are easily modded to output component video and the result looks absolutely amazing.

I have no idea how large that market might be, but I suspect it could be significant given the size of the retro gaming market these days.


Probably not the Sony Trinitron that we have in our house. I can't exactly pinpoint its age, but looking it up, it seems to be from roughly Gerald Ford's presidency (and certainly before I was born). It has dials and a wooden frame, and I can't lift it as it's so big and heavy. I used it to play my Xbox 360 on it until the 360 broke during a power outage. The Trinitron still works. That's a rather extreme example though, but I appreciated how technology during that time was built to last, at least more so than today. (I know planned obsolescence has been a thing since at least Henry Ford's time.)

There are many reasons why people would buy CRT TVs though. I mentioned before I worked in a thrift shop--you know, the kind spoken of in the Macklemore song--and we'd receive a lot of CRT TVs. Though I wouldn't grill customers on why they bought what they did, I would listen to what they want to tell me. In addition to retro gaming, they bought them for their lower price, their sturdier frames (CRTs are preferred by parents who want to install TVs into their little kids' rooms as they're much less likely to break, both because they're heavier and because the screens are thicker), that they'd fit into their old entertainment centers (ours cannot fit anything larger than a 28" screen, for example), their compatibility with older devices (which retro gaming would be a subset of) and, in some cases, their iconic look (we'd get a lot of people from the film and TV business who'd buy them to use as background objects, especially people who make music videos).

That being said, when an HDTV was donated in, and it works (we didn't put any electronics out for sale if we couldn't get it to work), odds are it'd be sold later that day.

For the record, retro gamers prefer CRTs due to there being zero input lag. Modern HDTV manufacturers have been getting better about this, but there is still a nonzero amount of it. Video games nowadays are built to compensate for that, but not games made for the CRT era. As many games during then relied on razor-sharp timing to proceed, the existence of input lag is a dealbreaker due to some games becoming unplayable if upscaled to HD through external hardware.
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Shiflan



Joined: 29 Jul 2015
Posts: 418
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:55 am Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:

How true that is will depend on knowledge that neither you or I know, as a format will continue to stay on the market for as long as it's profitable.

That is absolutely true. Nobody knows when DVD support might disappear, but signs point to it happening at some point. When that will be is anyone's guess. But nitpicking when doesn't really matter, all that matters is that it will at some point.

Quote:
If there are many others like me for whom resolution is not worth anything unless it's free, and Blu-Rays continue to be priced higher than DVDs, then that means the DVD format will be staying for the time being.

You seem to be focusing on the quality improvement of BD only while ignoring the fact that it will remain supported farther into the future. I totally understand not wanting to pay more for higher resolution if you don't care about higher resolution. But that decision seems to conspicuously sidestep the question of which format will allow you to enjoy your collection farther into the future. Like I asked above, even if you don't care about better graphics, wouldn't the future-proofing alone be sufficient justification for buying BD?

Quote:
Probably not the Sony Trinitron that we have in our house. I can't exactly pinpoint its age, but looking it up, it seems to be from roughly Gerald Ford's presidency (and certainly before I was born). It has dials and a wooden frame, and I can't lift it as it's so big and heavy. I used it to play my Xbox 360 on it until the 360 broke during a power outage. The Trinitron still works. That's a rather extreme example though, but I appreciated how technology during that time was built to last, at least more so than today. (I know planned obsolescence has been a thing since at least Henry Ford's time.)

No, it is not. The key phrase I used was "studio monitor". They are professional TVs meant to be used for pro video editing work, the kind of thing you'd find at a TV station, a video production agency, or a company which made commercials. They came in blocky cubic steel enclosures with carry handles; the smaller sizes were built to fit in a standard 19" rack. There is no way anyone would confuse them with a home TV. When they were being produced new in the 90's they cost several thousand, even a modest one would have been more than $10k and the larger sizes were more then 20k, which is staggering when you figure that they weren't very large at all.

Quote:
There are many reasons why people would buy CRT TVs though. I mentioned before I worked in a thrift shop--you know, the kind spoken of in the Macklemore song

I have no idea who Macklemore is, but I know thrift shops and pawn stores well. When I was in college I made a lot of money buying things from both and then reselling them during the early days of Ebay. A lot of the owners had no idea what they had. I found a lot of electronics which would sell on Ebay for several hundred if not more than a thousand that cost under $20. And at the same time you'd see silly things like a pawn shop trying to sell an ancient PC for twice the price of a brand new one from a big box store. I once saw them trying to sell one of those huge Panasonic CRTs (I think it was 40") for $500 when the Walmart across the street was selling brand new 44" flatscreens for $250.


Quote:
For the record, retro gamers prefer CRTs due to there being zero input lag. Modern HDTV manufacturers have been getting better about this, but there is still a nonzero amount of it. Video games nowadays are built to compensate for that, but not games made for the CRT era. As many games during then relied on razor-sharp timing to proceed, the existence of input lag is a dealbreaker due to some games becoming unplayable if upscaled to HD through external hardware.


The input lag is one factor, that's for sure. It's really the only one which has bothered me (I am not a serious gamer). There are many others. There are a few things that make the graphics look a lot better: Modern TVs try to upscale the graphics to make them look nice on the higher resolution panel. That works OK for real-life video but it works horribly for digital graphics (or anime, for that matter) because the algorithms aren't optimized for that. Furthermore, using a CRT with component input (a feature which tended to be limited to high-end CRTs) gives the best possible graphical quality on an old console because it avoids converting the video signal to composite and then back again. Having the fewest possible conversions to the signal improves its fidelity greatly. Also, many of the older consoles (NES era and earlier) used the blanking interval in the TV signal for various things and that is gone with an all digital set.
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