Forum - View topicREVIEW: Fate/stay night: Heaven's Feel II. lost butterfly
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18192 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Agreed on both points. Never thought much of Shirou as a character, but he was at least a bit more relatable here. |
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Putting aside who is a better character it puzzles me how a person that willingy kills every person they've ever cared about over a very roughly handled philosophical point is more relatable than the one who chooses to do the exact opposite.
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relyat08
 Posts: 4125 Location: Northern Virginia |
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I certainly agree on this as well. I've tried very hard to like and understand Shirou over the last half decade, but it's not happening as far as I can tell. I think I mostly understand him, but understanding his categorically insane obsession with being a hero doesn't make him any easier to appreciate, at least for me. Kiritsugu is still one of my favorite characters of all time, on the other hand, so it's unlikely that anything else from the Fate universe will ever reach the heights of Fate/Zero for me, as long as Kiritsugu is not the protagonist. Apocrypha was also a lot of fun, but had plenty of its own problems in the writing department regardless of the lack of anyone as offensive and uninteresting as Shirou. I also agree that the "blood licking" scene was highly overdone, and wouldn't have chosen to adapt it like that personally, but as far as I can tell, that sort of ham-fisted overwrought approach is how Sudo likes to do things in general, based on some of the other weird, goofy, and tonally odd choices he made throughout both the first and second movies so far. I don't hate it, but it it feels like you have to necessarily approach the movies expecting more of a comedic experience in order to fully enjoy them. If you are wanting the same serious tone from the VN, you'll undoubtedly be a little disappointed. Personally, it also feels like Sudo is trying to replicate the adaptation style of SHAFT with the Monogatari series(Tonally, not visually). Which I don't think was a good choice for this story, but may have been a good choice for them economically at least. Since people generally have been positive on the movies and they are doing quite well in Japan. |
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Izanagi009
 Posts: 464 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA |
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Bit of an odd question but why does Sakura have such a poor reputation to the point of deragatory names in the fandom?
Watching the movie, Sakura is clearly a victim and messed up due to her awful upbringing so why the rather negative nicknames? |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Shirou is an ordinary kid living in Fuyuki. Suddenly one day there a huge firestorm. His parents are gone, his home burns to ashes, all he sees is fire and dead or dying people. He's in hell. He realizes he's about to die when a person digs him out of the debris. That man is smiling. Kiritsugu's smile is like a beacon of hope in the middle of despair and is engraved in Shirou's mind forever. Even Archer who has mostly forgotten his past still remembers it.
Kiritsugu becomes Shirou's hero. But the trauma won't just go away. Shirou thinks that if he was given this chance to live when so many others died, his life must serve a greater purpose. He must honor those who didn't survive. And here is his hero, Kiritsugu, telling that once he wanted be a hero of justice. Shirou sees that his father is a broken man, but he also sees a shadow of a smile on Kiritsugu's face, the same smile he saw when he was saved. And Shirou says: "Then I will become a hero of justice in your stead". He's radiant, he believes he will be as happy as Kiritsugu was when he saved Shirou. He believes that this will be a life of purpose, that he will not squander it. Thus he is set on a path of a hero of justice. |
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Kaede0100
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Speaking for myself, I don’t care for Sakura because up to this point, she appears to have done nothing to improve her situation except to latch onto Shirou. She comes across as weak, especially when compared to Rin, Saber, or Ilya . But I come from the anime-only crowd, so don’t know the whole story. The crowd at my theater tittered a bit at the blood licking and sex scene, both of which I thought were well done, except for the spit (why is anime so obsessed with spit anyway?). However, towards the end of the film I felt that if I heard the word “sempai” out of Sakura one more time, I was going to scream. |
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pharmboy23
Posts: 196 |
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I thought her character was fine; mind I am very under-versed in the franchise as a whole, but the movie, as noted above, makes it pretty clear that she’s suffered an ungodly amount of abuse. It makes perfect sense that she’d cling to a starched shirt like Shirou who is hardcore about justice and defending the weak.
You musf have loved that smash cut of flashbacks when Shirou was making his decision at the end - sempai by the boatload! |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18192 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Yes, this all explains why he's striving to be a "hero of justice," but that doesn't in itself make him an interesting, relatable, or even likable character. Anime has produced other characters who specifically aspire to be a hero who are vastly more interesting and compelling and significantly less stupidly reckless. (Izuku from MHA immediately springs to mind.) I've never liked Shirou most prominently because of the last factor; putting yourself in danger when there's something you can realistically do is one thing, but when you're so far out of the league that you're literally just in the way then it just makes you look like you have a death wish. |
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Kezone
Posts: 11 |
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As someone who read the VN... it's complicated. I'm going to put this in spoiler tags just in case. For the record, I appreciate Sakura's character and pity her, but she isn't very likable. spoiler[ In the VN, Sakura is not a good person. How could she be, considering what she went through? She's both a victim and a perpetrator. In one bad end, she rapes Rin, because she despises her for living a comparatively happy, normal life and never noticing what Sakura was going through. She has a very yandere side, for example at one point she considers breaking Shirou's limbs to keep him from fighting. This was toned down considerably in the movies. She is aware of the Shadow much more in the VN, and likes having its power, because she never had any before. She never shows any remorse about the people she kills, and, actually enjoys killing them. She's the villain of her own route. Shirou and Sakura's relationship, while interesting, is very codependent, and involves Shirou throwing away his own desires and goals in order to make Sakura happy. She cannot live without him, he's literally the only good thing she's ever had. It isn't a very healthy relationship. Sakura's abuse is, in my opinion, generally handled very poorly in the VN. For one, it goes completely over the top dark, to the point it's hard to take seriously. She's been raped by worms since she was a small child, as well as by her uncle (Shinji's father), and her adopted brother. She never had any happiness in her life besides Shirou. It's just... a lot. Then, when we get to the sex scenes-- which HF has much more then the other two routes-- Sakura is treated as a very, um, the words used to describe her are "an educated prostitute." She is dependent on semen to live, and is framed much more sexually then Rin and Saber. This comes across as incredibly tone deaf because of her past of intense sexual abuse. In a broader sense, HF also paints the other two routes in a poor light, because you can't help but think "Well, what about Sakura!" which makes them feel less satisfying in retrospect. UBW and Fate compliment each other, but HF tears both of them down. How you feel about this is very subjective, I've seen polar opposite opinions, but it's important to keep in mind regarding fan's opinions of this route and its heroine. ] Hopefully that explains Sakura's complicated reputation in the Fate fandom. It actually used to be a lot worse, she's gotten more popular over time. There's no justifying the terrible nicknames though, I can't understand that. |
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KitKat1721
 Posts: 953 |
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Aside from missing the beginning since our screening just started randomly a few minutes into the movie (luckily we had a respectful audience so that was good at least - the only bit with some giggles was the blood sucking moment, which honestly felt pretty justified), I really liked it!
I liked Presage Flower too (despite being pretty lukewarm on UBW), and this just built upon that foundation even more, from the character relationships, answering plenty of questions while leaving new mysteries for Part III. The direction in these films is really jaw dropping, from the editing, the way certain shots are framed and lit, the action set pieces, or the general mood and atmosphere. Despite some slower moments, I'm never bored by what's happening on screen, which was an issue during the much longer length of UBW. Just absolutely beautiful work! I also think the film really succeeded in getting inside Sakura's head, which is pretty vital considering her actions and what she's gone through. Animating these films for a theatrical release (and with the knowledge that UBW + Zero to an extent), exist has really served this adaptation well. I have no knowledge of this route, so I'm definitely excited to see where it ends up. |
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Staros
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Edit
Last edited by Staros on Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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In itself it makes him exactly an interesting character, because we (and he himself) have to piece it together from flashbacks, moments of reflexion and his interpersonal conflicts. And as we do we start to realize that the seemingly crazy patterns of thought and actions start to make sense. Understanding how he got here, understanding that he was a victim, and keeps being a victim of his own psyche goes a long way to make him sympathetic. Relatable? I don't know, that's too subjective. But if he's less relatable than the professional assassin that resolves every moral conflict with a numbers game, i'm not sure we understand that word in the same way. Less tragic in a classical sense? That I would find arguable. The part about recklessness, it has been talked about ad nauseam in the ubw thread, I've sketched it in the above comment and it is showcased in all fate anime shows, is that this is a drive not an aspiration. It's not something he has a conscious control of, it's not something he really chose to do. So why would we expect him to make rational decisions? And that's a benefit of hindsight. That he does these stupid and reckless things is a narrative device that clues us in that Shirou is not just following naive ideals in his father's footsteps, but that instead he is seriously disturbed. We are not supposed to root for him. We're supposed to ask why he is like that. One of the puzzle pieces that let's us put together the picture of his psyche. |
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Izanagi009
Posts: 464 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA |
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well, that makes sense. To be honest, I feel Nasu during F/SN originally was really bad writing wise. Like i tried reading the VN but the writing was cringy and horrible. The tone deaf nature of the sex and Sakura's framing is part of it. The yandere part i perfectly understand but I think this is one thing the movie changes for the better and frankly something that should have been done with Reala Nua. As for the bad end, yeah that's stupid and tone deaf but i can imagine an abuse victim thinking or doing that. As for the terrible nicknames, yeah, some of those names seem sex negative and dimnishing of her issues |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Typemoon has a large and active fanbase which means that opinions about characters are formed not just by the text, but also by other fans' opinions of them. And Sakura has a fair share of passionate fans. So it also comes down to shipping wars and just some people whiteknighting characters so much that others start to hate those characters instead of just disliking them. Last edited by jl07045 on Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Izanagi009
Posts: 464 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA |
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So basically, the issue was fandom squabbles and impressions from stuff only tangentially related to the text. Sounds like every bad fandom |
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