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Key wrote:

Yes, this all explains why he's striving to be a "hero of justice," but that doesn't in itself make him an interesting, relatable, or even likable character. Anime has produced other characters who specifically aspire to be a hero who are vastly more interesting and compelling and significantly less stupidly reckless. (Izuku from MHA immediately springs to mind.) I've never liked Shirou most prominently because of the last factor; putting yourself in danger when there's something you can realistically do is one thing, but when you're so far out of the league that you're literally just in the way then it just makes you look like you have a death wish.

Shirou as a character reminds me of everyday actors struggling to make a name for themselves. Both have these lofty dreams/ambitions that they will do anything and everything to attain. And Archer represents the self who finally achieved his dreams, but became a shadow of his former self due to the sacrifices he made along the path to glory.

That inner critic that tells them they are out of their league is exactly what pushes them to take drastic measures. When someone lives their life in an attempt to be more than just themselves, personal health isn't the first priority that comes to mind. Gotta be the best. Gotta be stronger. Gotta be skinnier. Gotta be smarter. Gotta be prettier. Gotta be social. Gotta be...

That struggling artist mentality has always been my frame of reference for anything Shirou-related.

Key wrote:

Yes, this all explains why he's striving to be a "hero of justice," but that doesn't in itself make him an interesting, relatable, or even likable character. Anime has produced other characters who specifically aspire to be a hero who are vastly more interesting and compelling and significantly less stupidly reckless. (Izuku from MHA immediately springs to mind.) I've never liked Shirou most prominently because of the last factor; putting yourself in danger when there's something you can realistically do is one thing, but when you're so far out of the league that you're literally just in the way then it just makes you look like you have a death wish.

Shirou pursuing a joy and an ideal he doesn't initially fully comprehend is a lot more fascinating to me than Deku heroing off pure impulse. The fact that Shirou has a genuine, and even negative, reason for what is usually a generic character trait makes him fascinating. Especially in this movie, where he sacrifices the lone hope that he's lived his entire life for so far for an uncertain love and happy ending, even when there are people dying in the streets because this is the first time he's felt this way. That is an engaging character conflict, more so than "I'm not strong enough to #1 Hero yet". I like Deku, but he's pure shounen, nothing more.

I can relate quite easily to someone who has to second guess their path in life, especially when it becomes clear that the idealized version of that path/career goal/etc. will never happen.

As for recklessness, actions come with a cost, one that you generally don't see in shounen. Heroes get hurt, suffer, and die. But they still manage to save people. It fits with the tone of the story and Shirou's ideals crashing headlong into cold, hard reality.

What makes Shiro even worse for me is how Fate is jam packed with great characters, but the focus is on this stupid guy at their expense.

I have never, ever been able to get over how it has this amazing opening with Rin and her playing off of Archer, indicating you're in for a story with a fantastic main character. Then it's all "Hi I'm Shiro I fix the old school air conditioners with my janitor magic, anyway fancy a hero of justice?"

Felt exactly like the reviewer coming out of this film; overwhelmed. This movie was a lot to take in, and is in my opinion the best Fate anime I’ve seen yet.

This is the first adaptation where Shirou’s weird “hero” goals made sense to me, since for once it is personal, rather than a vague ideal. I also love that this is directly and dramatically challenged in the film, and compared to the way Kiritsugu did things.

I appreciated that the mature subject matter was mostly treated with appropriate gravity, and that we finally get the exploration of Sakura’s character that the other adaptations ignored. I was fully invested in their relationship in this film, though the whole thing had a foreboding tone throughout. Considering it was a story focused on Shirou and Sakura, it did a great job with that (spoiler[that mutual confession scene in the rain was just gorgeous, kudos to the animators])

My only nitpick is that one character shows up for a spectacular fight, but without revealing much of anything behind their new circumstances and motivations. I can only hope we’ll get some of that in the third film.

Key wrote:

Yes, this all explains why he's striving to be a "hero of justice," but that doesn't in itself make him an interesting, relatable, or even likable character. Anime has produced other characters who specifically aspire to be a hero who are vastly more interesting and compelling and significantly less stupidly reckless. (Izuku from MHA immediately springs to mind.) I've never liked Shirou most prominently because of the last factor; putting yourself in danger when there's something you can realistically do is one thing, but when you're so far out of the league that you're literally just in the way then it just makes you look like you have a death wish.

tbf he's not really meant to be relatable. Part of the point of Shirou is to criticize characters like Izuku and examine how unrealistic and unhealthy their mindset and actions are.

My theater in the middle of Manhattan was packed last night, to the point they added a second screening to the night because of demand. They also apparently moved the screening to another room last minute, so all the (half-assed) assigned seating that the tickets had didn’t even apply (bought a ticket for seat D14 because it was the best seat left, but apparently the seat didn’t exist as the seats ended at D13), presaged by the fact that when friends checked the listing earlier in the day, it had switched to general seating instead. So I grabbed an available seat, and went to enjoy the movie.

We were def full of Fate fans, with a number of nesos in attendance (my Rin neso is still being shipped from Japan unfortunately), a bunch of cosplayers, and two guys breaking out fight sticks to play Fate Unlimited Codes on a laptop 10 minutes before the movie started.

Crowd reaction was pretty heavy, like Sakura’s VA alluded to in the pre movie cast roll, for things involving Ilya’s initial appearance and all of Sakura’s sexiness stuff, especially the blood drinking scene and her admittal to Shirou of not being a virgin, plus the scene where she collapses due to arousal following Shirou leaving for Einzbern Castle. The actual sex scene was rather handled well with a minimum of crowd reaction, albeit with some laughs as Sakura strips to her underwear as Shirou is rooting around in the cabinet with his back turned, though I really expected a “J-J-JAM IT IN!” reference being yelled. The Sakura candy scene also got a reaction (great way to show how not in control of her actions she is and her lack of understanding of the Shadow), as did Gil’s end, and that scene cut with Kirei saying it was time for a blessing right after the sex was pretty good. Also, a bunch of jaw drops at the anticipated fight scene, and whoops at the reference to the bar that made him gar, and awws at Archer’s final scenes. A lot of laughs whenever Shinji got what was coming to him. Major anticipation for the spring song preview too. Added to the overall ambiance, and was par for what I expected out of a group of Fate fans from the area around NYU.

And yeah, the Aniplex subs weren’t the best, and we got one or two graphical glitches that resulted in artifacting near the middle of the movie. Subs were way too literal in parts, and Shinji talking about “obscene intercourses” when he’s attacking Sakura at the end there took me right out of the scene, although I was really anticipating him getting his. Zouken’s explanation of what the Shadow is could’ve been clearer too, but I guess that’s what the Ilya chat with Sakura about the Grail was for.

Honestly, I agree that the movie was certainly an overwhelming experience, and I’m not really sure how to put it differently than that. I really need to refresh my memory on HF, I had forgotten a lot of the middle of the route that this movie covered, hadn’t read the route for the better part of a decade, and that was the original version and not Realta Nua, so I dunno about some of the “all ages” changes introduced in that. I do remember the end of the route is a non stop roller coaster, so I’m looking forward to spring song. Just hope they don’t pull a Cherry Blossom’s Dream ending on us, but with how ufotable has handled the previous route adaptations, I’m expecting a True End Return to the Spring. Probably with a DVD OVA of stuff like Mind of Steel, Sparks Liner High, and all the other VN ends that people like about this route. But still, this was a good bridge, and I’m looking forward to 2020 for spring song.

Also, dammit Fathom, you couldn’t have but together any merch or swag for this screening like Azoland did for presage flower (the poster that I missed out on because I got to the theater late)? At least I still have some of the presage flower swag I got for working AnimeNYC last year, for their Fate event. Just a set of 3 postcards, but they’re still pretty cool to have.

Anyone else disappointed with how spoiler[ Gilgamesh ] goes out. I know this is exactly how the character dies in the visual novel, but it's weird how the whole thing goes down. spoiler[ We don't really see him get eaten by the shadow, which was something I was really looking forward to. ] As I was driving home with my friend, I wondered if audiences not familiar with this story would be wondering what happened to this character.

getumbuck wrote:

Anyone else disappointed with how spoiler[ Gilgamesh ] goes out. I know this is exactly how the character dies in the visual novel, but it's weird how the whole thing goes down. spoiler[ We don't really see him get eaten by the shadow, which was something I was really looking forward to. ] As I was driving home with my friend, I wondered if audiences not familiar with this story would be wondering what happened to this character.

I'm not disappointed in the manner of death, but I do wish that in place of being so dialogue heavy, the movies had given Gilgamesh more scenes in Heaven's Feel. After all, he's a huge character. Maybe have him lurking as a threat to Sakura throughout the two movies, only for it to turn out that Sakura was the true threat to him in the end.

louis6578 wrote:

but I do wish that in place of being so dialogue heavy, the movies had given Gilgamesh more scenes in Heaven's Feel.

Yeah pretty much this. Gilgamesh is pretty damn great in my opinion (him and Cu are best boys for me), but Heaven's Feel kept him so much in the background, it almost felt like his scenes just didn't need to be there (that goes for both movies). He either gave some snarky commentary (voiced or not), and then...that fight scene. Kinda underwhelming for a character of his caliber.

Then again, I am an anime only fan in the Fate universe. Maybe he gets a bigger part in the VN?

Time Bandit wrote:

louis6578 wrote:

but I do wish that in place of being so dialogue heavy, the movies had given Gilgamesh more scenes in Heaven's Feel.

Yeah pretty much this. Gilgamesh is pretty damn great in my opinion (him and Cu are best boys for me), but Heaven's Feel kept him so much in the background, it almost felt like his scenes just didn't need to be there (that goes for both movies). He either gave some snarky commentary (voiced or not), and then...that fight scene. Kinda underwhelming for a character of his caliber.

Then again, I am an anime only fan in the Fate universe. Maybe he gets a bigger part in the VN?

Again, it’s been a while since I’ve read HF, but no, Gil doesn’t have a larger role in this route (mostly being cryptic with Kirei) and is worfed in much the same way to drive home how dangerous the Shadow is. Coming after how big a threat he was in both Fate and UBW, both of which you are supposed to have played before starting HF, it’s supposed to work that way. Same way (Fake) Assassin was killed off so quickly this route to let (True) Assassin make his entrance, or how Caster was swiftly eliminated here, or Rider was an afterthought in UBW, or how Saber was sidelined in most of UBW because her story was explored in the Fate route. It’s just how routes work.

GhostStalkerSA wrote:

Time Bandit wrote:

louis6578 wrote:

but I do wish that in place of being so dialogue heavy, the movies had given Gilgamesh more scenes in Heaven's Feel.

Yeah pretty much this. Gilgamesh is pretty damn great in my opinion (him and Cu are best boys for me), but Heaven's Feel kept him so much in the background, it almost felt like his scenes just didn't need to be there (that goes for both movies). He either gave some snarky commentary (voiced or not), and then...that fight scene. Kinda underwhelming for a character of his caliber.

Then again, I am an anime only fan in the Fate universe. Maybe he gets a bigger part in the VN?

Again, it’s been a while since I’ve read HF, but no, Gil doesn’t have a larger role in this route (mostly being cryptic with Kirei) and is worfed in much the same way to drive home how dangerous the Shadow is. Coming after how big a threat he was in both Fate and UBW, both of which you are supposed to have played before starting HF, it’s supposed to work that way. Same way (Fake) Assassin was killed off so quickly this route to let (True) Assassin make his entrance, or how Caster was swiftly eliminated here, or Rider was an afterthought in UBW, or how Saber was sidelined in most of UBW because her story was explored in the Fate route. It’s just how routes work.

Thanks for the answer GhostStalker!

That makes sense to me. I mean not EVERY character who might have meant something significant to other routes is gonna do so here. Does it leave me a little disappoint? Eh a tad. But the Fate universe is SO huge, I can't expect my favorites to have a significant role ALL the time. I accept that. Although I still think his parts in Heaven's Feel movies were not needed. I saw no danger between him and the Shadow until shit actually hit the fan. That might be just me though.

Izanagi009 wrote:

Bit of an odd question but why does Sakura have such a poor reputation to the point of deragatory names in the fandom?

Watching the movie, Sakura is clearly a victim and messed up due to her awful upbringing so why the rather negative nicknames?

She's a victim, but she's also spoiler[an out of control murderous magical monster that has to be stopped]. Rin's decision that spoiler[she needs to be killed] is absolutely the right decision!! So I really don't understand why she just seemed to drop that. Also Sakura is so worried about getting close to Shirou because she doesn't want to "contaminate" him. But she completely does contaminate him because she causes him to spoiler[throw away his ideals to save deadly monster]. That's the tragedy of this story.

Izanagi009 wrote:

Bit of an odd question but why does Sakura have such a poor reputation to the point of deragatory names in the fandom?

I can't talk for other people but I in particular stopped liking her when she killed me (Shirou) for leaving her at home with a cold and going outside. I don't remember getting bad endings where the heroines of the other routes killed me Laughing

killjoy_the wrote:

Izanagi009 wrote:

Bit of an odd question but why does Sakura have such a poor reputation to the point of deragatory names in the fandom?

I can't talk for other people but I in particular stopped liking her when she killed me (Shirou) for leaving her at home with a cold and going outside. I don't remember getting bad endings where the heroines of the other routes killed me Laughing

First off, that is a genuinely poor decision considering it's her route. Second, that isn't actually Sakura, and you shouldn't even be suspecting it at that point unless you went in with inaccurate spoilers and a bias against her in mind. Third, Saber and Rin do kill Shirou in bad ends as well, often ones related to Caster. spoiler[The only bad end where it's actually Sakura killing Shirou is the very last one, and it's clear she does it out of a warped sense of mercy since the world is doomed at that point anyways.]

Kezone wrote:

Izanagi009 wrote:

Bit of an odd question but why does Sakura have such a poor reputation to the point of deragatory names in the fandom?

Watching the movie, Sakura is clearly a victim and messed up due to her awful upbringing so why the rather negative nicknames?

As someone who read the VN... it's complicated. I'm going to put this in spoiler tags just in case. For the record, I appreciate Sakura's character and pity her, but she isn't very likable.

spoiler[ In the VN, Sakura is not a good person. How could she be, considering what she went through? She's both a victim and a perpetrator. In one bad end, she rapes Rin, because she despises her for living a comparatively happy, normal life and never noticing what Sakura was going through. She has a very yandere side, for example at one point she considers breaking Shirou's limbs to keep him from fighting. This was toned down considerably in the movies. She is aware of the Shadow much more in the VN, and likes having its power, because she never had any before. She never shows any remorse about the people she kills, and, actually enjoys killing them. She's the villain of her own route.

Shirou and Sakura's relationship, while interesting, is very codependent, and involves Shirou throwing away his own desires and goals in order to make Sakura happy. She cannot live without him, he's literally the only good thing she's ever had. It isn't a very healthy relationship.

Sakura's abuse is, in my opinion, generally handled very poorly in the VN. For one, it goes completely over the top dark, to the point it's hard to take seriously. She's been raped by worms since she was a small child, as well as by her uncle (Shinji's father), and her adopted brother. She never had any happiness in her life besides Shirou. It's just... a lot. Then, when we get to the sex scenes-- which HF has much more then the other two routes-- Sakura is treated as a very, um, the words used to describe her are "an educated prostitute." She is dependent on semen to live, and is framed much more sexually then Rin and Saber. This comes across as incredibly tone deaf because of her past of intense sexual abuse. ]

Pretty much none of that is true, though.
spoiler[Some much needed context for the Rin bad end is that Rin had just replied to Sakura pouring out her heart about how she never wanted for any of this to happen and everything she had gone through with "lol serves you right, now die". Sakura making Rin go through the same things as her was pure karma at that point. Her wanting to keep Shirou from fighting was due to the fact that him dying in vain was a very likely outcome, which she obviously found to be a far worse option than him having to retire. And yeah, her being aware of the shadow is pure bull. She was completely clueless until Gilgamesh attacked her, and no civilians ever get eaten again after that night. Shinji is the first person Sakura ever kills, and the guilt of killing him in self-defense sends her into a mental breakdown where she deludes herself into thinking she might just as well have been the shadow all along. The people Sakura does kill are the Matous and Kotomine. Not sure how killing villains makes you a villain.

The entire point of the Fate series is that Shirou/Archer/Kiritsugu's ideals are fundamentally unhealthy, which is why Shirou finally discarding them because he realizes Sakura is worth more than them is the grand finale of the series. The two of them are broken people dependent on eachother, but that is also precisely why they succeed at fixing eachother where the idealist enabler Saber and the privileged and empathy-less Rin failed.

You're right that the H-scenes are poorly written, much like the ones in the other routes, but you outright make up stuff like Byakuya raping her that's never actually mentioned, and you being unable to take her abuse seriously just says a lot about you.
]
In short, the issue was always the following: You see those people at the cinema constantly guffawing and making loud noises at random inappropriate moments of this movie? People like that were made to sit down and read a book, one far more complicated than, say, a shounen manga. The issue was never with Sakura, but solely with the fandom.

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