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Last edited by Takkun4343 on Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:45 am; edited 1 time in total

I think the question that needs asking here is, "did the artist's views influence his art?" Yes, Sugiyama was an ass, but if his assery didn't immediately translate into his work, it's a valid case of separating art from the artist (unlike, say, with that one guy who drew eerily hyperrealistic lolicon and then got caught with actual CP; no way pulling that excuse out there will work).

Of course, just the name association is enough for people to cast that sentiment to the wayside even when it's valid to separate, as I've seen in this thread. If Sugiyama's name is enough to make you not want to play any more Dragon Quest games, be my guest, but I'm not gonna let his homophobic (in the case that "phobia" means "hatred" and not "fear") statements stop me from finishing Rayearth; helps that he only supervised the music there and Hayato Matsuo did all the heavy lifting.

Rentwo wrote:

all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:

I can find literally no credible sources in English about Tomino being an anti-Semite while Sugiyama's bigotry is well-documented.

Forgive me, I thought it was one of his more well known extremist views

https://twitter.com/zeonicscans/status/1293302139800809472

Isn't it good thing? Not his views here, assuming it's true (I have no idea how to verify this), but the fact that if you write something horrible but only in your draft version 30 years ago, people will remember you mostly for your art, while if you spend those 30 years telling everyone very publicly about your horrible views, people will remember you mostly for those views. I don't want every obituary to turn into "forgotten sin hunt", unless the person in question wrote their "sin" on their business card, in which case it seems fair to talk about it.

EDIT: For example, Lovecraft is known to have been a racist, and it does show in his writing sometimes, but because AFAIK he didn't made his racism his life cause itself ( plus apparently he got more moderate later), people remember him far more for his fantastical input into world of fantasy.

He was too vile of a person for me to be able to celebrate his accomplishments or have any sadness for his passing. Sugiyama pissed away his own legacy. RIP to MIDI music in DQ. The true hero of this tale.

Tomino has issues that need to be much wider known, no question, but putting him in the same boat as Sugiyama ain´t it. Tomino didn´t go out and make the world a worse place. Sugiyama gave money to alt-right organizations! This is honestly worse than him being the Japanese equivalent of a holocaust denier.

Its almost impossible to do one good thing, you made my brother happy when he was little. I will always be grateful for that. I hope you R.I.P and go to a new world.

a_Bear_in_Bearcave wrote:

EDIT: For example, Lovecraft is known to have been a racist, and it does show in his writing sometimes, but because AFAIK he didn't made his racism his life cause itself ( plus apparently he got more moderate later), people remember him far more for his fantastical input into world of fantasy.

I assure you people remember Lovecraft's racism. The World Fantasy Award was a bust of Lovecraft for decades; it was changed in 2015 because of his beliefs.

Never knew what a horrible person he was before all this. I've also never heard a DQ track that was at all memorable to me. I don't like the idea of being happy about someone's death, but I'm definitely not upset.

Takkun4343 wrote:

I think the question that needs asking here is, "did the artist's views influence his art?" Yes, Sugiyama was an ass, but if his assery didn't immediately translate into his work, it's a valid case of separating art from the artist (unlike, say, with that one guy who drew eerily hyperrealistic lolicon and then got caught with actual CP; no way pulling that excuse out there will work).

If someone is is making profit from their art and then using that profit to finance specific groups or ventures that profess certain ideals or causes you can’t truly separate their art from their views. And even if you can like in the case of JK Rowling you’re still creating a very awkward situation with regards to choosing to support them or not in light of those views.

BadNewsBlues wrote:

If someone is is making profit from their art and then using that profit to finance specific groups or ventures that profess certain ideals or causes you can’t truly separate their art from their views.

And that would be why I threw in my second paragraph.

residentgrigo wrote:

Tomino has issues that need to be much wider known, no question, but putting him in the same boat as Sugiyama ain´t it. Tomino didn´t go out and make the world a worse place. Sugiyama gave money to alt-right organizations! This is honestly worse than him being the Japanese equivalent of a holocaust denier.

Japan is no different than other countries. Companies and creators donate to a variety of organizations and politicians, but it's hard for non-Japanese speaking people to find that information out. Sugiyama was just one of the more well known ones because he was an open political activist who went on public news shows and panels. It's hard to believe general contributions to the ruling LDP party in Japan aren't standard for a lot of companies, let alone the individual creators who give us the occasional glimpse into their political views via posts on social media or interviews. If someone like Kazuki Takahashi was willing to use the Yu-Gi-Oh characters to tell us to help secure Japan's future and vote to keep Japanese interests in the forefront, it's not unreasonable to think he may have made a related contribution to said candidate using some of that Yu-Gi-Oh money. But we'll likely never know for sure given how secretive Japanese creators tend to be in their personal lives. Politics is something that doesn't really come up much in public discussion.

BonusStage wrote:

Politics is something that doesn't really come up much in public discussion.

That is a complete and utter lie; Japanese artists have used their art to express personal beliefs, including political ones. Shigeru Mizuki wrote a manga about his experiences during World War II, excoriating Imperial Japan, while Osamu Tezuka and Shotaro Ishinomori used their work to espouse anti-imperialist and anti-fascist beliefs. Shigesato Itoi frequently wrote anti-war ads and has a history of being arrested at anti-war protests. The Yakuza series is a look into Japan's shameful history of xenophobia, exploitation, and racism.

Seriously Japanese people, let alone artists, are not apolitical. Beat Takeshi was all over the talk show show circuit razing Japan's government for their botched Olympics that affected any and all attempts to deal with the pandemic. Protests were happening 'round the clock. Politics happen in Japan.

Takkun4343 wrote:

be my guest, but I'm not gonna let his homophobic (in the case that "phobia" means "hatred" and not "fear") statements stop me from finishing Rayearth; helps that he only supervised the music there and Hayato Matsuo did all the heavy lifting.

Strange choice of job, as CLAMP's works aren't exactly known to be averse to lgbt, in its various forms... Confused

juaifan wrote:

Humans are complex creatures, and not everyone can be an open minded saint like Hayao Miyazaki who goes out drinking with old Nazi soldiers from WWII and then pens a manga honoring them and their life after getting to know them.

I'm not at all aware of this ever happening. Can you provide a source ?

Also, do you mean:
Nazi SS, German Soldiers, or Japanese Soldiers ? Three completely different things.

BonusStage wrote:

If someone like Kazuki Takahashi was willing to use the Yu-Gi-Oh characters to tell us to help secure Japan's future and vote to keep Japanese interests in the forefront, it's not unreasonable to think he may have made a related contribution to said candidate using some of that Yu-Gi-Oh money.

At the time, he was criticizing/speaking against former PM Shinzo Abe, and his right-wing "Liberal Democratic"(I know) party:
animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2019-07-16/yu-gi-oh-creator-kazuki-takahashi-apologizes-for-political-statements/.149055 He also apologized for using his characters as political props.

Trying to equate him to Sugiyama is pretty silly, and most of your comments seem to boil down to "But THIS other person was ALSO bad, so it's ok, really!". Confused

Last edited by Blanchimont on Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

Tempest wrote:

juaifan wrote:

Humans are complex creatures, and not everyone can be an open minded saint like Hayao Miyazaki who goes out drinking with old Nazi soldiers from WWII and then pens a manga honoring them and their life after getting to know them.

I'm not at all aware of this ever happening. Can you provide a source ?

Not sure if it's him juaifan was referring to, but it might possibly have been Otto Carius, quote from The Hayao Miyazaki Web;

Quote:

Miyazaki also traveled to Germany to visit Otto Carius, who now owns the "Otto Carius Apotheke" or "Tiger-Apotheke" (apothecary)

The two short mangas probably related to above depicting a German tank crew;

Hansu no kikan (The Return of Hans) (1994, Dai Nippon Kaiga)
Otto Carius: Doromamire no tora (Tigers Covered With Mud) (1998, Dai Nippon Kaiga)

Blanchimont wrote:

Tempest wrote:

juaifan wrote:

Humans are complex creatures, and not everyone can be an open minded saint like Hayao Miyazaki who goes out drinking with old Nazi soldiers from WWII and then pens a manga honoring them and their life after getting to know them.

I'm not at all aware of this ever happening. Can you provide a source ?

Not sure if it's him juaifan was referring to, but it might possibly have been Otto Carius, quote from The Hayao Miyazaki Web;

Quote:

Miyazaki also traveled to Germany to visit Otto Carius, who now owns the "Otto Carius Apotheke" or "Tiger-Apotheke" (apothecary)

The two short mangas probably related to above depicting a German tank crew;

Hansu no kikan (The Return of Hans) (1994, Dai Nippon Daiga)
Otto Carius: Doromamire no tora (Tigers Covered With Mud) (1998, Dai Nippon Daiga)

that's horrible. I lost a lot of respect for Miyazaki

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NEWS: Dragon Quest Composer Koichi Sugiyama Passes Away at 90