Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2007-01-19]
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Cain Highwind
Posts: 313 |
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Yep I'm another guy who really likes the creative fansubs. As one person said when people go as far to blend the English translation into the picture it makes for a much more informative release. And besides, are there ANY DVDs that make use of a seperate line to clarify a Japanse pun or anything of the sorts. I'll occasionally see "Sign: Flower Shop" or something like that but nothing like, say, "NOTE: It's common for Japanese to take shoes off when entering buildings" (I know you'd never see that, I'm only using that for example's sake) or anything trying to explain different Japanese puns.
While I can't say I've seen a huge library of Fansubs yet, I can already get an idea of what Zac is talking about. I saw one fansub of KoF: Another Day (done by a group called Avalon IIRC) where it seemed to be a very tired effort and it just looked plain gimmicky with its literally "Haircolored font for each different character talking". However, you look at the brilliant Kaizoku Fansubs for One Piece, and they add a LOT of flair to it. They have a simply easy to read font that they generally only change for either a second conversation (in general cases a sky blue color) in the background, or they invertly bold it for flashbacks. Still, it looks very clean, and they don't go overboard. And they offer a lot of nice touches like large fonts for screaming, fade outs for echoes, and I think they're very creative in the fonts they choose for character attacks. This isn't to say I wouldn't snub an official R1 release for this, but I do wish to at least see SOME of these aspects in an R1 DVD someday. |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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I disagree. Since the question was: So my question: when (if ever) can we expect to see the big-name anime companies start to adopt the methods of the fansub groups and get some subtitles that don't burn my retinas? Is it a technical thing? Is it a budget thing? Is this a sneaky way of getting us to watch the dubbed-version? Then is the limitation IS the technology, then the industry needs to adopt new technology. Otherwise, saying the industry is exempt from criticism based on the tech they use would be like saying you should like audio tapes and like them even though MP3s exist because that's just what audio tapes are capable of and we can't compare their quality to a higher standard simply because MP3s exist. Based on the most extreme examples, like DVD menus and the "best" overlays, it is POSSIBLE to get crazier with the subs, it's just not economically viable. But I see no reason DVDs can't be judged againt fansubs, especially since fansub detractors/industry supporters (rightly) have no issues comparing video quality between the two. |
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Space Goats
Posts: 21 |
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Part of the reason you might be seeing bluriness on DVD subtitles is you are using a composite or coaxial connection. Try s-video or higher (component, DVI, HDMI, etc.) as they provide a substantially sharper image. It will reduce the "bleed thru" effect that some subtitles have where they seemingly blend into the picture behind them.
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Strephon
Posts: 177 |
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I can't speak to the specifics of the Nausicaa subtitle positioning, but it is an opportunity to address something nobody's brought up: Fansubbers often place subtitles far too low on the screen. TV screens have a section of the picture that isn't always visible, varying between models, which isn't the case with computer screens. This isn't a problem if you're watching on your computer...but it is if you're using a Divx-capable DVD player so you can watch on your TV with your friends, rather than trying to crowd around a monitor or laptop. I've seen shows where the bottom of the subs was cut off on multi-line subtitles (readable), where the bottom was always cut off (readable with some work), and where the subs were almost or completely lost (totally useless). It's less of a problem than it used to be with the increase in the number of widescreen shows, and I know it's not a crucial issue to most people, but it's still annoying. The one fansubbish feature I'd like the option of is having simultaneous Japanese and English lyrics on theme songs, because I find myself in the position of thinking either "I wonder what the actual Japanese phrase is?" when watching the English or "I wonder if that word means what I think it does?" when watching the Japanese, and it's hard to cross compare if they're on different episodes. Given the issues involved it's not something I'd want to sacrifice something else for, however. (I suspect that using alternate angles for subs would result in fewer episodes and/or extras per disc, for example.) |
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MezzoFan
 Posts: 18 |
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On the R1 Subs vs. Fansubs topic:
The difference is a matter of limitation in the DVD spec. A subpicture track only accepts still images for subtitles. Essentially... DVD subs are just bmps or tiff images with 4 index colors (usually black, white, and two shades of gray). The colors are indexed for background (usually opaque), text border (usually black), and a choice of two text colors on screen at the same time (usually white and yellow). The only way to make karaoke/fancy subs on a DVD is by hard-subbing it or using digital overlays... which is a BIG no-no for most fans. To even do concurrent streams of dialogue (two characters talking at the same time), you need to create a still image for each piece, kind of like this: ------------------------------------------------------- STILL#1 In time: Out time: Text: ------------------------------------------------------- 00:00:01;20 00:00:03;00 "Hey there." ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------- STILL#2 In time: Out time: Text: ------------------------------------------------------- 00:00:03;00 00:00:04;00 "Hi! Hey there." ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------- STILL#3 In time: Out time: Text: ------------------------------------------------------- 00:00:04;00 00:00:04;15 "Hi!" ------------------------------------------------------- Some studios will also do concurrent dialog by using hyphens: "- Hi! - Hey there." Additionally, you're limited to using TrueType fonts rather than PostScript. Since DVD subpicture tracks have a 4 color limit, you can't use fonts with anti-aliasing. Basically... there are a lot of limitations. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are promising much more with their subpicture tracks (you can watch a director's commentary track where you see a little video of the director's face pop-up on screen when he speaks), but the technology is still pretty new. On a fansub, there is no subpicture track... you can't turn the subs off. Since you're not under any limitations, you can color them as you like, make them spin around and fly through the air, etc. |
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kolibri
 Posts: 712 Location: Vancouver |
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Bandai is picking up on this, at least on Eureka 7 and Planetes DVDs they use white (yellow?) and green for dialogs happening in front and backgrounds. For Planetes for example they can have the background announcement in green on the top of the screen, and then the ongoing character dialog on the bottom in white. Which is really nice - the background is probably not that crucial but the fact that they bother translating it is much appreciated.
Exactly. The fact that's been always done that way doesn't mean you need to keep doing it. It'll be interesting to see what can (and will) be done with BlueRay and HD-DVD, although that will take years to catch on. |
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Iron Chef
 Posts: 487 Location: Seattle, WA |
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I like the ranter who bemoans the death of the anime industry because of YouTube. Similar statements were made during Napster's heyday, where all those involved bemoaned the death of the recording industry. Shoot, you'll still hear that argument from time to time regarding BitTorrent and LimeWire.
What you'll also hear is that digital downloads of songs, books and movies are booming. I think that Viz's plans with Death Note are the industry realizing that there are way too many people with way too much money and way too much bandwidth, so they're cool with downloading a several-hundred-megabyte file for their viewing pleasure. I'm sure that eventually they'll wind up posting a smaller size for iPods or other portable media devices, too. That said, I'm one of the people who enjoys holding the product in my hands, and REALLY enjoys the portability offered by hard-copy DVDs. Generally, you don't gather everyone around your computer to watch a show, and unless you've got a laptop, it's kind of inconvenient to hook your compy up to the telly. Sooooo...how can media folks get around this hurdle? Maybe offer DVD ISOs for download via BT, with included liner notes/jackets? I dunno. But don't write off the industry just because there's a site out there that pirates abuse for the sake of anime. By doing so, you're underestimating the legal teams of the companies who market these products and the brains of the people whose site is being brutalized. (Okay, maybe that's a bit of hyperbole. Whatever.) The fields are lush and green, kids. Go out and smell some flowers. |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6867 Location: Kazune City |
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One thing I thought of that more companies could do with songs, and I'm pretty sure that DVD specs allow this, is called "punctuation." On quite a few R1 DVDs, the song lyrics seem like they just take the unedited translations and tack them onto the DVD, when a few questions marks, periods, commas, exclamation points, or even semicolons could transform it into a flowing song that makes more sense and reads better. Of course, some fansubs don't do a good job with this, either. *There are three main styles of DVD-rips: 1) All subtitles changed to plain white font with black outline at the bottom of the screen, regardless of their original color or position. 2) Mimicking the exact same colors and positions of the DVDs. 3) Using fansub-style tricks to spice things up, like hardsubbed karaoke and positioned signs. Some go as far as editing the subtitles to include honorifics and whatnot. |
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silentjay
Posts: 304 |
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The other thing about that release is that Fox allowed the director to supervise the translation and subtitling himself. As far as I know, that's unprecedented in the realm of localization. That said, the Nightwatch subs were quite legible, and only moved into the illegible area of things if the dialogue itself was barely audible. |
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Merryweather
Posts: 1 |
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There are programs out there that can correct this problem(Overscan) for those who like to watch their fansubs on TV while comfortably curled up on their couch. As for fansubs text in general: I personally feel that the colored text IS helpful. When you have more than 2 characters talking at the same time, keeping track of who's saying what can be very helpful. As well as signs being translated; one school hallway looks much like another and when characters are standing outside of a room chit-chatting knowing where they are chit-chatting and who could likely interupt can be at the least amusing and best informative. The YouTube issue: I don't use it for the very fact that watching something that I can buy is illegal. If something dosn't have a R1 release then fansubs are my only realistic option, but I do try with my limited income to pick up series that have been released commercially. Also, it has been mentioned on other forums that YouTube pulls anime as soon as they are aware of it due to copyright issues, R1 releases and fansubs. |
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'Apple
Posts: 5 |
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Wow. Well one of the things I have to say is that I think Zac took that "Let me right I column for you" message a little to seriously, I mean saying that you hate them, and should go to hell.0_0. That a tad bit over the top, don't you think? (I have now lost most of my respect for him. Unfortunately)
Anyways, yeah I think that was a pretty good group of questions. xD. About the Media Blasters thing, I kinda was like "What the hell?" 'cause I don't think I have ever watched a media blasters DVD, with bad quality. Man, the Sub question was interesting, and I think I am gonna have to go with Zac, the plain bold, non fancy color for you're home T.V. or even on the internet is kinda better, I mean I don't read sub's to be "Amazed" by the color. LOL. This You Tube thing is the same exact thing that has been going through my head, I pretty much do the same as the girl ranter this week (Forgot her name. U.U) I use You Tube, to sample the videos, and then watch them at home after I buy them, and normally, if I do end up watching the whole series (Which normally doesn't happen) I just but it anyways, for "Otaku/Anime Nerd (Whatever the hell you want to call it.>>) Fests." [EDIT: Tiny red text reminds me of those hard-to-read fansubs. Stick to standard colors and sizes, like the DVDs do.. ~Zalis] |
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Josh7289
Posts: 1252 |
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Ouch? Anyway, as for the Media Blasters thing, I own the first season of Rurouni Kenshin in the "Economy Box" form, and the first time I tried to watch through it, all kinds of glitches, freezes, and lock-ups occurred everywhere, and I just stopped watching it (since their customer support never replied to my emails and I just forgot about it after a while). I then tried to watch it again months later, and I just skipped around to the parts that were glitched before, and it magically seemed to work fine. I then looked at the discs, and found a strange oddity. On the data side of all the discs, it looked like some liquid was spilled over it and dried, but under the thin clear protective layers on top of the actual data part of the disc. It's hard to describe, but it was like a wavy line wound all the way around each disc. I still don't know what this is, and I haven't tried the discs since that last time...Maybe I should try watching it again and see what happens. That said, the video and audio quality was decent for the time period RK was originally created in, but the openings and endings on the discs looked like absolute crap, from a VHS tape that has been copied one too many times or something. Even the subtitles on the openings and endings were part of the video (they couldn't be turned off as they normally can as an option on DVDs) (EDIT: I hear this is called "hard-subbing"). The subtitles on the episodes themselves were normal (albeit a bit small and too bold), but it's still strange. ALSO, the "shaky" subtitles and overly bright colors the one person described is probably just because he was watching the DVDs on a crappy 480i TV. And as for the Flake of the Week, jeez Zac, calm down a bit! It's just a friendly gesture, maybe even a compliment to the funniness of your column. |
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ichido reichan
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This is the topic I was waiting for.....
Subtitles in fansubs.... You know, I 'll have to take the answerman side this time, for a long time I was sick of all these "too little, too low" subs that really took away the enjoyment of the show, I like my subtitles as big and uninteresting as possble, I don't want fancy effects, gothic fonts where the R can be confused with the T, and the karaoke with japanese hiragana/katakana on it, that I think is just a waste of time/effort because the 100% of the audience that really "need to read" those subtitles won't care how accurate those japanese subtitles are. Somebody in this thread said: "This isn't to say I wouldn't snub an official R1 release for this, but I do wish to at least see SOME of these aspects in an R1 DVD someday." No, you won't, for ages, the subtitles in movies are trying to be as "standard" as possible, and the point of the subtitle is to read in the same range of view as the image you are being presented at that time, but when someone got the idea of "let's not cover the animation, so let's put the subtitles so low and so little that you have to look up and down and have an unobstructed view of the animation" which is preety dumb if you ask me, if you need subtitles, you need them in a range of view that covers at least "R-30-L-30-V 10" I do Fansubs, and I don't care about Karaoke or fancy titles with japanese fonts on it, nowadays is like the fans want the subtitles to be a part of the anime world they are watching (subtitles matching hair colors!! what the heck?) and they deviate from the point that is already hard enough to be reading the rainbow of colors and variations of the subs that I think that's why companies allow fansubs to get around, so when the show comes up you can buy the freaking show without the fear of "eye strain" and less distraction. The fonts in the fansubs are the sole reason why fansubs will always be an inferior quality that owning an official release. Even though I must say I prefer the translations of Cromartie funnier in the fansubs than the oficial R1 |
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Steroid
 Posts: 329 Location: At home, where all good hikikomori should be |
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Also, it's worth noting that in digital distribution, there are soft-subs, which you can set to whatever font you like, be it simple or fancy. That would be the best method, though it's nigh impossible to implement on a DVD.
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MorwenLaicoriel
 Posts: 1617 Location: Colorado |
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They can't? I recently rented the first volume of Pani Poni Dash from Netflix, and I'm pretty sure it uses both upside down subs AND mirror imaged subs at one point. |
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