Forum - View topicMalevolent Spirits: Mononogatari (TV) (w/ index).
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23779 |
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@ b-dragon: with respect to the Bureau's lack of reaction to the destruction of one of their number - part of that may be a simple mechanical function of the fact there is so much going on that there is literally no screen time available to cover that in this episode. Perhaps it will be addressed in the next.
However, it may also be because the remaining two simply don't care. They are focussed on achieving their dream: to play in front of the biggest audience possible on the biggest stage possible. For that, the god has to open the door between the human world and the land of the dead. If, in the process of making that happen, that means playing as a duo as opposed to trio, who cares (may be their thinking)? |
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Gina Szanboti
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Well, tsukumogami are created from 99-100 year old items that were well loved and cared for (or they probably wouldn't last a century) by the humans who used them (I think the lore in this might be a little different though, given how many are evil, unless the evil ones were pissed off at being thrown out at around 99 years to prevent them becoming tsukumogami). Most of the instruments you're worried about don't fit that criteria. 
I really liked the old lady from the Bureau. I don't see her getting to be redeemed at this point, so I'm still sad about that. |
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Edjwald
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Edited to clarify a ramble
Yah, I think in this anime the objects can be invested by any strong emotion, not just love. Or else, the author's view of love is a lot darker than I'd thought. I don't know much about tsukumogami lore. I remember at least two other anime about the subject - one was about a brother and sister running a shop, and one was about some female spirit investing some kind of white cloth attaching herself to a boy...but I didn't connect with either of them.
This goes back to what Blood and b-dragon were saying too - the flute player did wince when asked about the missing big guy. And the old lady was still talking about being part of a trio in her closing war declaration unless I misunderstood her reference to a "Great Three." Which might have been from habit, or maybe she's making some rationalization about representing the big guy in her heart. But I don't see them redeeming themselves either. If they were going to try to kill someone to avenge the big drum guy, it would probably be Botan, and best case scenario would be the paper umbrellas getting entangled trying to stop them. I'd like to think there were certain suicidal impulses in the old lady's talk about a final greatest song, but maybe I'm just projecting an earnest wish that she feel some guilt, or that the bureau go away forever. I was more shocked (even to the point of irrationally taking it personally) by their surprise betrayal than by any other anime developments in recent memory. But I have to admit, it was very effective in ramping up the tension. That kind of thing is why I don't read Japanese light novels anymore. For me, a lot of the fun comes in trying to figure stuff out, and when I first started getting into anime, I naively read some light novels trying to scratch an anime itch, not understanding how many would wind up becoming the shows I'd be watching in a few years. It wound up spoiling some anime for me. And now that Korean web novels are starting to get animated, I'm getting caught in the same trap again. There's a show coming out this fall, Even a Returner's Magic Should Be Special which was a series of web novels that I liked a lot. Same thing with Solo Leveling. . |
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b-dragon
Posts: 452 |
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@Edjwald I do agree with most everything you've said. The only point of clarification is that I believe the "Great Three" doesn't refer to the specific members of the Bureau of Traditional Music. Rather, if memory serves, they as a group are one of the "Great Three".
I think thats correct. There's a lot of background nomenclature in the setting that's a bit aggravating to keep completely straight. If I were watching for any reason other than pure enjoyment, I'd probably be keeping a chart. |
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Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 11299 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Original discussion started here.
---------------------------------- Episode 22 (S02E10): Dance ---------------------------------- Summary: Pending ---------------------------------- Comments: Pending ---------------------------------- Screen Caps:  
 
 
 
 
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Edjwald
Posts: 1130 |
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Episode 23
Welp, the traditional music bureau did manage to wring a little pathos out of of their fate after all, at least from where I was watching. Not a whole hell of a lot. I was glad to see them go, and I agreed with Nagi's epitaph, but I did have a "What a sad, pointless waste" kind of a feeling. It was good to see everyone back together again. The only thing that made me pause was when the paper umbrellas sat back and watched the music bureau fight and go down alone. But I guess the bureau survivors weren't dependable allies all things considered , and they had a shot at taking some of the trousseau out with no risk to the umbrellas. As to the rest, there's been so much going on that I'd completely forgotten that Hyouma hadn't integrated with his door knockers (still can't believe I'm using door knockers in a sentence this awkwardly and this frequently). It's a bit shonen-esque, but I'm still up for a moment where Hyouma comes into his own. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23779 |
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"Be cast to the four winds and die, you stupid a-holes."
Couldn't have said it better myself. While I didn't care for the Bureau's rationale for attacking Botan, I granted it had a logic to it given they used to be musical instruments and wanted to play for the biggest possible audience on the biggest possible stage. But, in the end, that seems to be an analogy for "we wanted to fight really strong opponents" which is one of my least favourite motivations for anime villains. So blow, indeed. With the way Tenjitsu was flapping his lips, you know there is a Huge Comeuppance moving down the pipe and I can't wait. It'll look good on him. I hope Hyoma collects his warranted smoochies from Botan after he delivers the righteous butt-kicking. 
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2847 |
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#23
Again, I'm not sure if the changes to the source material are going to be well received by the core audience. There are two ways the changes could go, either future adaptation come up with clever writing to work with the paradoxes that have come with bringing forward information in this adaptation, or the animators do not believe they have done enough to win more work for future adaptations and have decided on an anime-original conclusion with some wiggle room for future adaptation if sales are unexpectedly strong. I'm leaning towards the latter, as burning all bridges when there's material left to work with goes against what I've seen to date. The animators clearly do care about their output, and if there was disagreement with the series creator on the changes word would be out by now about dissatisfaction and discontent. Giving an answer regarding Hyouma's older siblings is interesting. spoiler[Source material readers only find out about this several arcs later and it's an important point to what's to come. One point in favour of the animators not burning all bridges is Kusui, who despite what is seen with Hayato has not made an appearance in this adaptation. I suppose seeing both of his siblings together would have shattered Hyouma for good, so just having one sibling to face off with is acceptable as the emotional support from his allies allows him to keep going despite the current mismatch.] The battle with the remaining Gagakuryou members was closer than it should have been, but one of the more important gaps at source is fleshed out here and it's nice to see what the remaining two members are capable of when they don't rely on their usual repertoire of moves. spoiler[Kushige's intervention turns the tables, but his involvement here creates a paradox for later on which I'm wondering how the animators are going to resolve.] Although their mantra of "Rock" has always been hard to pin down despite their numerous attempts at defining it, they've probably earned their status as one of the more interesting personalities in this franchise, having occupied both sides of the spectrum. The rest of the episode and beyond is definitely anime-original. Great for anime-only viewers who don't care either way, but for the core audience reception is hard to gauge. How the animators go about this is arguably going to be the biggest factor behind home sales; if the changes are well received and source material fans buy it up then writing away the numerous paradoxes and inconsistencies from this episode and next week is a battle for another time. Otherwise, the gamble will fail and future adaptations won't happen. Opinion so far from the Japanese viewers isn't great, since Youtube videos about how this franchise isn't making an impression the same way bigger hits have done this season and in seasons past doesn't indicate strong sales for home videos. For the action set pieces, more of the same from the series of battles which started since the betrayal was openly declared. It doesn't get any better than this in terms of visuals, so unless the animators have a hidden ace up their sleeves I can't see any further improvement forthcoming. The existing standard is good enough for me so far, now to see what kind of finale the animators can come up with to surprise the existing fans. |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11363 |
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Is it just me, or did everybody look particularly good in this episode? Like the character designs really popped with everyone getting a chance to be badass or something. Though I am still sad to see the Bureau go, I really enjoyed just looking at the episode. I also thought they handled the explanation for the tsukumogami looking like his bro pretty well. Felt like filling in some blanks more than infodumping.
Yeah, I lol'ed when I realized that "door knockers" was what they were actually calling them and it wasn't just a poster being snarky about their design.  So, like, do they scavenge them off temple doors or other holy sites or what? I mean, what doors did they ever knock on? If they're just forged without ever seeing a door, they could just as easily be belt buckles or bridle rings, though the latter might be too punny.
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b-dragon
Posts: 452 |
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I find it amusing, perhaps overly so, that as the Nagatsuki's are encouraging Hyoma, cementing him publicly as Botan's fiancé (including Yu, surprisingly,) Kushige...nods and grunts. I half expected a thumbs up. I dunno, I chuckled.
Its a cheesy moment, I think. But I'm invested enough in the characters and relationships that it lands well for me. I just wonder if Botan's going to have something to say about his official pronouncement as son-in-law once the dust settles- I can see the show ending the season on a comedic note like that. |
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Edjwald
Posts: 1130 |
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With his brother's doppelganger standing there dissing him in the background and not many episodes left in the tank, I think they're trying to hammer in the fact that (A) Hyoma isn't just a kid trying to live up to someone else's legacy anymore (B) he has a new family. Not that gramps is getting kicked out in the street, but that some of the tsukumogami he used to hate have stepped in to fill the void that another tsukumogami left, just like they did with Botan. Gina - I'd like to think that the door knockers are custom made by a traditional Japanese smith and that their name sounds a lot cooler in Japanese, but I suppose the family could just buy them at the Japanese version of Lowes, or there could be some kind of "What? Some kids vandalized your door again? (Sigh) Fine, I'll come replace the damn things, but when are you going to get a security camera?." scenario going on. 
I guess there's some kind of symbolism via the fact that the family's special gift is opening up sealed barriers? |
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 11299 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Episode 23: Sparks
---------------------------------- Summary: Pending ---------------------------------- Comments: Pending ---------------------------------- Screen Caps: Pending |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2847 |
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#24 End
One last chance for the animators to keep casual viewers interested, and they've certainly tried their best. A few more snippets brought forward before their time, as well as a bit of material which is specific to the adaptation only. Overall, the episode did its job at closing off the arc without closing the door completely on future adaptations. Whether that will happen will REALLY depend on home video sales, and I'm not confident on that front. What the animators did keep from source material, I'm glad they didn't change too much. The celebratory party is really to showcase the only time to date Kushige actually speaks, and the producers even bothered to bring in Oozuka Akio for what is effectively a cameo role. Seeing Hyouma get stick for actually basking in what he perceives to be properly earned praise is the other twist, which hopefully viewers enjoyed as one of the last comedy aspects of this adaptation. If the franchise does earn the opportunity for further adaptation, one aspect I hope the animators do develop is Botan's relationship with her University friends. One of the few anime-only features I truly enjoyed, as there wasn't enough of that in the source material and it's a reminder that she's not just the object of attention for everyone who knows about her status as a vessel. The writers have shown they're not afraid to take risks with continuity, so writing away some of the paradoxes introduced to date shouldn't be too difficult for them. Whether they get that chance is another matter. The season is in some ways better than the first, but also more controversial. It wouldn't be mentioned as a candidate for the quarter's best adaptation, but it would be grossly unfair to go to the other end of the scale and say it's the worst adaptation of the season. Again, if this had aired at peak pandemic it would have done much better with a less crowded field to compete against for eyeballs. Although the series does its best to remind viewers about its own lore, the end product is not as memorable as other blockbuster franchises and it doesn't stick for casual viewers. Future adaptations further down the line (if any) will definitely be a gap with this quarter, so by the time they air the series might have lost what buzz it had with the established fanbase while the casual viewer would be forced to re-watch the previous two seasons to jog memories. |
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Edjwald
Posts: 1130 |
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Welp, I hope this show did crazy well in Japan. But since I feel lucky to have gotten a second season as quickly as I did, I'll keep any whining and moaning about hopes and fears for a third season down. I was glad the show provided some closure, and I was glad it had the resolve and/or cheek to toss out hints at future developments. The anime is a class act IMHO.
I was a little disappointed that I didn't get to see more of Hyoma's upgrade, and I would have also welcomed seeing that living suit of armor take on the paper umbrellas, but I'm glad the show decided to have some R&R time instead. Given the choice, I preferred seeing Botan's club to having another battle scene after five episodes of them, though it didn't really feel that long while I was watching it. It was good to see that Botan's efforts paid off in terms of her being accepted publicly, and if I wasn't reading things wrong, it sounds like the Nagatsaki family has no intention of locking her away in a new mansion, which is a good thing. At the same time, I've invested in this show so much, I almost had PTSD when I saw those paper umbrellas at the public wedding, half expecting a hidden attack at any moment. . It's a It's a weird situation - not wanting to turn Botan into a trapped bird, and giving her freedom and space when there are so many people and things out there with bad intentions. One of the best shows around at keeping its balance, and one of my favorite couples in waiting. I'm going to miss this one. |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11363 |
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I wasn't myself ('cause last episode), but I did think that they might be jumpy at the sight of them. Also thought it was funny - "So you think I'd look good in that? Let's go crash the wedding!" One thing I liked about this series was that Hyoma and Botan each grew because of the other, rather than having one wounded soul saved by the love of a rescuer. Nice to have a couple on equal footing in that regard, even if Hyoma does get to play the "I'll protect you, fair maiden!" role to Botan's Pauline. |
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