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radicaledward wrote:

In short you can legally sub (fansub) any movie that is in the public domain. Same deal applies to any written work as well. Also, it would still be legal (to the best of my knowledge) for me to buy the DVD and make a fansub for my own personal use.

The reason it is illegal is not because it is subbed, but because it is unauthorized copying and distrobution of a copyright protected work. That's the law, hence ALL fansubs are illegal if they are disributed. You are also only allowed to sub a series you actually own, because when you purchase the DVD, you are effectively also purchasing a license to use it as you wish, for your own personal use.

Michelle:

As far as fansubs dying out goes, you must not check up on them too much. Yes, series get licensed faster, however I know of at least 5 to 10 fansubs groups off the top of my head that couldn't care less if a series is licensed or not. Also, the speed at which series are released does not affect people who are too cheap to go buy it. Not to mention that the number of fansub groups is actually increasing, not decreasing.

Kazuki-san wrote:

Michelle:

As far as fansubs dying out goes, you must not check up on them too much. Yes, series get licensed faster, however I know of at least 5 to 10 fansubs groups off the top of my head that couldn't care less if a series is licensed or not. Also, the speed at which series are released does not affect people who are too cheap to go buy it. Not to mention that the number of fansub groups is actually increasing, not decreasing.

You're right, I don't patronize that type of fansubber so I'm somewhat blind to their numbers (not anymore!) This thread is rapidly pulling me towards the "down with fansubbers!" side.

radicaledward wrote:

Compared to Japan we get the series at about the same speed at which it comes out over there, and cheaper than you would expect to pay for the DVD in Japan (however, that comparison is not entirely fair as most things in Japan are more expensive). Odds are we could expect to start seeing some releases being released in both Japan and North America in the near future.

Agreed, however, we aren't able to watch it every week like they do in Japan. That is why I personally do not agree with the speed at which DVDs are released in America. Of course none of what I am saying will ever happen, so maybe a satellite dish would be a good investment.

Kazuki-san wrote:

The reason it is illegal is not because it is subbed, but because it is unauthorized copying and distrobution of a copyright protected work. That's the law, hence ALL fansubs are illegal if they are disributed. You are also only allowed to sub a series you actually own, because when you purchase the DVD, you are effectively also purchasing a license to use it as you wish, for your own personal use.

Umm, isn't that what I said in my post? Since people don't generally seem to understand the difference between a copyrighted work, public domain work, and the user license you purchase when you buy a DVD/CD I will summarize for everyone:

- Copyrighted Work: The author/copyright owner retains full ownership and distribution rights to the work, and my allow others to use it as they please. Note that being the author a work may not necessarily make you the copyright owner the work (ex. A programmer working for a company is the author of the program, but the employer is the copyright owner of the program).
- Public Domain Work: This is a work that has reached the end of the time at which it is copyright protected, and maybe used by anyone for any means that they wish (ex. translation to another language, or reprinting and sale). Once a work is public domain the author/copyright owner will not have any claims to the work and will have not legal grounds to prevent distribution.
- Single User License: You bought a DVD/CD from a store or though other legal means and are granted permission by the author/copyright owner to use said item for private use only. Technically this means that only the purchaser can use the media, however, in practicality that is mostly unenforceable.

Now as for the legality of fansubs, in short there is a firm point at which they are illegal, and a gray area as well. Under US Copyright Laws, I am allowed to have one (1) copy of multimedia (DVD-ROM/CD-ROM/Audio CD) for my own personal archival purposes, so the copying of a media is (usually, there are exceptions, and international law is different) no illegal. However, once you provide the media to the general pubic for them to copy you are committing copyright infringement.

Pandemonium wrote:

Aren't the bootlegs that we are actually talking about, raws, not fansubbed materials. So really they should go after neither fansubbers or bootleggers, they should be going after raw providers, which is the root of the problem.

Going after the providers of the raws would not do much, simply because it is too easy to get the raws. For example if you have a video capture card you can hook your computer up to the TV and get a broadcast quality capture of the show, then all you need to do is edit out the commercials to get something that can be used for a fansub or bootleg. However, since most bootleggers are after a quick buck (and they tend to be outside of Japan) it is more efficient to go after the source of the subtitles for the bootlegger – no subtitles would mean that they have to do them themselves.

Nishida wrote:

Agreed, however, we aren't able to watch it every week like they do in Japan. That is why I personally do not agree with the speed at which DVDs are released in America. Of course none of what I am saying will ever happen, so maybe a satellite dish would be a good investment.

Very true, however, I think that most companies are getting to the point where they can get a DVD out in about 6-12 months after the of the series in Japan. Which is why I wouldn't be supprised if we start seeing North American releases of shows that are still playing in Japan some time in the near future; however, it is more likely that we will start seeing North American DVDs being released at the same time as Japanese DVDs soon.

radicaledward wrote:

Umm, isn't that what I said in my post?

Sorry, guess I misread Embarassed

Kazuki-san wrote:

Sorry, guess I misread Embarassed

Not a problem, I still have that happen to me from time to time as well. Very Happy

Last edited by darkhunter on Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

I think most leecher are so spoiled by fansubbing that they're blind to logical reason other than thier own selfish nature. I'm pretty sure all fansubbed are illegal, even the ethnical fansubber themself said so. Just that many people try to find a reason to justified thier behavior.

Fansub isn't the only way to preview a show. You can try renting the anime first, perhaps through netflix if it's available. Also on many dvd, there's usually preview for the show. You can subscribe to magazine or get your info online, or heck even read the Shelf Life section as it's usually very well written with good taste.

Naruto gets about 10000 downloads on BT on it's very first day. One of the ops for the infamous group also brag about how they can are able to distrubute 30,000 files for that released for the first week. This is the only reference I got since they know the real number.

Also, I say Ebay has a big bootleg problem because there's no one really moderating it.

Michelle, I agree with you that I'd rather see Japanese companies directing their efforts towards people that sell Hong Kong bootlegs and the awful people that sit there and try to sell fansubs on Ebay. What's funny is Ebay will let these people sell their products but people can't sell doujinshi which the Japanese government sees as OK. It's kind of twisted.

Then, you have the US manga distributors that contribute some of their top sells to the fact that the manga was heavily distributed online before they released it.

I think it has more to do with the US anime distros, such as ADV. As a matter of fact, I think ADV is the only company that has been active in fansubbers haulting distribution of their releases.

I think the only think that would stop fansubbers is if the Japanese companies started taking out copyrights in all major countries and not just in the US.

And, yes, Jetto, most people aren't introduced to anime by fansubbers because alot of anime fans started in the early 90's, like me, before internet fansubbing even existed. Not to neglect the actual distro companies, but some of those early 90's cuts and dubs were pretty terrible if you ask me. Now, I think anime would be best shown on TV in sub format, but then you have stupid people complaining about actually having to read. Oh, well. If anime subs improve in quality (I don't just mean the actual translation but how they present the words on the screen so it's not boucing up and down,etc.) and drop a little in price, I think I could handle it.

Now, Bann, you really can't look at the live action Sailor Moon show. This show has a one in a million chance of making it to the US. Americans can handle animated shows with voice overs, but live action is too obvious. And, thanks to the Sailor suits not being full cover Power Ranger outfits, Fox can't slice this show up to bits.

Nishida, I do agree that US companies are a little slow to release anime. And the rental store up the street from me goes on sporadic modes of pulling anime from the shelves. They'll have the first DVD of a series up for 4 days and then take it down and leave the rest of the series up for months. Haven't figured this one out, yet.

I do agree that the stickers can't be all that effective. Atleast they are trying.

Hmmm... I guess if a group grabs one of the first ever animes, that might fall into public domain because its copyright ran out, so there's your possible "legal" fansub.

And, I said it above, but just read the last post, Ebay monitors doujinshi so well that you really can't find any on Ebay because they say it violates copyright laws, yet they let people sell obvious illegal copies of anime. Go figure.

Erufu wrote:

And the rental store up the street from me goes on sporadic modes of pulling anime from the shelves. They'll have the first DVD of a series up for 4 days and then take it down and leave the rest of the series up for months. Haven't figured this one out, yet.

That's a little nutty. Try asking why! (probably would have to ask a few clerks to find one who knows) At least they'll know someone's noticed the problem.

Erufu wrote:

And, I said it above, but just read the last post, Ebay monitors doujinshi so well that you really can't find any on Ebay because they say it violates copyright laws, yet they let people sell obvious illegal copies of anime. Go figure.

Wow, I'd never have guessed Ebay monitored anything at ALL, with the garbage I see on there nowadays. I no longer use Ebay for acquiring anime for that reason.

Erufu wrote:

And, I said it above, but just read the last post, Ebay monitors doujinshi so well that you really can't find any on Ebay because they say it violates copyright laws, yet they let people sell obvious illegal copies of anime. Go figure.

Are you sure about that? eBay Search - Doujinshi eBay only tends to remove items from auction when they are reported.

radicaledward wrote:

Erufu wrote:

And, I said it above, but just read the last post, Ebay monitors doujinshi so well that you really can't find any on Ebay because they say it violates copyright laws, yet they let people sell obvious illegal copies of anime. Go figure.

Are you sure about that? eBay Search - Doujinshi eBay only tends to remove items from auction when they are reported.

Yup, I'm on ebay almost every other day to bid on manga. While people do report, there's just too many bootlegged to have a major impact. There's noone moderating bootlegged anime item, you have to report it to them so they can investigage. Even then, who knows how much they actually do.
If ebay had someone that's well knowlegde in bootlegged product and can run through the anime section of ebay and remove bootleg, we wouldn't have to see so much.

Nishida wrote:

radicaledward wrote:

Compared to Japan we get the series at about the same speed at which it comes out over there, and cheaper than you would expect to pay for the DVD in Japan (however, that comparison is not entirely fair as most things in Japan are more expensive). Odds are we could expect to start seeing some releases being released in both Japan and North America in the near future.

Agreed, however, we aren't able to watch it every week like they do in Japan. That is why I personally do not agree with the speed at which DVDs are released in America. Of course none of what I am saying will ever happen, so maybe a satellite dish would be a good investment.

We don't get to watch anime every week, because well we don't live in Japan. Actually we do if you can check out GSEED and others on CN, The animenetwork and so forth. Anime airing in japan's tv arn't exactly free either. We are limited to where we live. The same way the Japanese can't watch the latest movie being released here until months after. People are limited to where they live, so therefore not everyone is equal. Deal with it, it's not so bad.

Well then, it seems to me there is another site that i have mentioned before and i will mention again.

Amazon.com is selling bootlegs all over the place and often it is eating into their sales, but they do nothing about it. Explain this to me. I have allready emailed em twice now on the cowboy bebop boxset which is a nonexistant exclusive to amazon.

I don't really know how relavent this is, but a lot of people will prefer fansubs to legitimate licensed works because of the translation. I've heard so many people complain about Viz's translation of the Naruto manga already, hence why the weekly scanlation downloads are so popular. It's often the case with anme and fansubs; there are scores of people that hold bitter grudges for various companies for screwing up the translation or dubwork of an anime. So it isn't only that people are cheap or want to get things faster, but that they prefer a fan's work over a corperation's work. But that goes back to a whole different issue of sub vs dub. ...

Erufu wrote:

I think the only think that would stop fansubbers is if the Japanese companies started taking out copyrights in all major countries and not just in the US.

The Japanese companies do not need to take out a copyright in the US at all if the so choose. They are afforded one automatically by way of the Berne Convention (as well as others). Any country who signs the Berne Convention must also afford the Japanese company a copyright. By the way, most fansubbers are in the US anyway. At least that sub in English. Wink

Erufu wrote:

Oh, well. If anime subs improve in quality (I don't just mean the actual translation but how they present the words on the screen so it's not boucing up and down,etc.) and drop a little in price, I think I could handle it.

If you mean having sub only releases, that won't ever become standard practice. It's a known fact that a subbed only series will not sell as well as dubbed/subbed. Less merchandise moved = higher price to insure a return. If that's not what you're talking about... my bad!

Erufu wrote:

Nishida, I do agree that US companies are a little slow to release anime.

I don't see how.. let's say that a company.. hmm ADV for example, get's 15 new series in one year. Well for each series (typically 26 eps for TV) you're talking about hiring people to translate, act, create the DVD artwork and menu programming. Time for script rewrites. In some cases having to mail a version of the script back to Japan so that it can be approved by the licensor(s). Not to mention you can only have so many actors, working on so many shows in your studios. I think release time is very good right now, and has only been getting better

radicaledward wrote:

Under US Copyright Laws, I am allowed to have one (1) copy of multimedia (DVD-ROM/CD-ROM/Audio CD) for my own personal archival purposes, so the copying of a media is (usually, there are exceptions, and international law is different) no illegal. However, once you provide the media to the general pubic for them to copy you are committing copyright infringement.

Yes, you may make 1 back-up copy of certain media (specifically computer software, which IIRC does not include DVDs), for archival use only (i.e. for storage until the commercial version no longer functions), at which point the archival copy may be used to restore the original copy to working order.

The archived version, therefore, should be an actual archive of the commercial work, made by yourself and stored in a secure location for use only in the event that the original fails.

Using or lending the archive (i.e. watching the archived version, or lending the archived copy to a friend) is illegal. Downloading someone else's archived version (i.e. you own Azumanga Daioh 1 and download some pirate's DVD rip for your own archive) is illegal.

Fansubs cannot be considered archival copies because there's no license to go with them in the first place.. and even if there was, fansubs themselves are not a direct archival of the commercial release anyway, so they're not qualified for archival purposes.

You can make a fansub for your own personal use, provided that you never distribute it or (legally) let anyone else watch it.. however, several anime companies have said they have no problem with conventions (or clubs) producing fansubs for their attendees, provided that the convention/club takes steps to ensure no one's going to steal the video and distribute it.

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