Forum - View topicREVIEW: Black Butler GN 3
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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This comparison surprises me. Pandora Hearts is made by woman, even if there are girls, they are not used for fanservice, like the girls in Shakugan no Shana. They may have big breasts, for example: Ada, but that is all, she is never shown half-naked, etc. Besides, there are more hot guys there than cute girls and Pandora Hearts has more things that can be considered as fanservice for female readers, though the fact that guys show their chest is justified, since there is no other way to check if someone is an illegal contractor. 
The humour in Pandora Hearts is the same sort of humour that is present in the first three volumes, it never changes or becomes less or more prominent. The mystery is more interesting later; in these three volumes not even all of the important characters are introduced.
There isn’t any relationship of this sort in Pandora Hearts. The relationship between Elliot & Leo can be considered sparking and crackly, but it’s by no means similar to Cial & Sebastian’s relationship. It’s not worse, it’s just different. |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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That doesn't matter. One of my favorite BL authors is a dude (Kisaragi). Clamp has commented while they're known for hot bishonen, they love drawing cute girls. Kaori Yuki in the sidebars of Grand Guignol 2 comments on liking to draw girls. A lot of gals seem to prefer drawing cute girls.
I have 0 comprehension of moe. Don't really WANT to understand it, but that's more what I'm talking. She seems to be that sort of cute little girl character guys drool over. So I guess in a way I sort of see PH as pandering to guys & gals, but not all that deep.
Sorry, I meant Bloch's & Poe's black humor. PH is pretty standard on humor
We've just seen the Prince for the first time at the end V3 of BB. There are lots of characters to be seen in BB. Not sure how many are important like the Prince.
Not exactly what I meant. I mean the whole vengeance taking one down a dark path where there's little difference between good guy & bad guy in their actions. There should be things good doesn't stoop to. The whole thing of the Phantomhives being the Queen's dog, doing the dirty stuff she can't dirty her hands with. Sebastian is at Ciel's side, watching him slide from the innocence of childhood to the blackness on one who can do anything, no matter how heartless to carry out his job. Sebastian doesn't protest whatever Ciel has ordered, at least so far. In western stories, we have repentance-go & sin no more so a bad guy can make up for his/her bad past. In a certain number of anime we've seen characters still damned for their past evil even though they've done good later in their existance. The question, then is going to be will BB follow the path of redemption & somehow save Ciel from the bargain he's made, or will he be fully bound & is therefore is already a lost damned soul? It's pretty evident Sebastian is properly seasoning Ciel's damnation. |
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Aylinn
Posts: 1684 |
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Yes, female writers also make cute girls, but still, even if those girls are sweet, clumsy, infantile and in this way similar to moe girls created by men, they are never as sexualized and as artificial.
I can only say; you haven’t missed out on anything interesting.
In Pandora Hearts the important characters will have been introduced by the end of volume 7. The most important are already introduced, albeit some like Jack appeared only briefly.
In this case there is nothing of this sort in Pandora Hearts. All I want to add is that, with one exception, I didn’t find Pandora Hearts characters very interesting in the first few volumes, they are more interesting in the later volumes, where they start to gain individuality. |
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JabberwockCat
 Posts: 6 |
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Emphasis mine. I had to stop reading the article after this paragraph. Grelle is transgender, which means that you should refer to her with the gender she identifies as, i.e. female. It's disrespectful and offensive to the transgendered community to refer to a transgendered person as their physical sex, fictional or not. |
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kuriousity
ANN Reviewer
 Posts: 45 Location: Canada |
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I certainly meant no offense in my reference to Grell as male. That's how I see him and how he is referred to predominantly by the fan-base and in translation. He's eccentric and rather flippant in all his eccentricities and nothing while reading lead me to believe he was seriously intended to be a representation of a transgendered individual. |
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JabberwockCat
Posts: 6 |
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It has been stated in the character book that Grelle wants a sex change, and in the character interview said, "I think my biggest complaint is since birth that I am not a woman. Really, I think God made a mistake... That's why right now, the thing I want to do most is have a sex change. I'm serious, you know?" She is most definitely transgendered.
How you "see" the character doesn't really matter. I could say I see Harry Potter as female, but that doesn't make him so. |
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rinmackie
 Posts: 1040 Location: in a van! down by the river! |
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I'm pretty sure the reviewer hasn't read the character book, so unless Grell mentions being transgender within the context of the actual story, those who only read the manga will not know this. So please, give the poor reviewer a break!
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JabberwockCat
Posts: 6 |
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Except that Grelle states that she wants a baby and calls herself a woman in the series. Specifically, in the flashback chapter where she and Madam Red meet. So that argument really doesn't fly.
Look, all I want is for the pronouns referring to Grelle changed from male to female. It isn't that hard, and leaving them as they are is completely inappropriate and offensive. |
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wandering-dreamer
 Posts: 1733 |
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I've only read the manga and I had no idea about this either. o_O Honestly I thought Grell's "I want to have your babies!" was being played for laughs, you know, as an over-the-top yaoi implications, plus I've never seen anyone use female pronounces for them. |
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JabberwockCat
Posts: 6 |
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The only thing about Grelle that was really played up for laughs was the way she reacted to Sebastian and Will's treatment of her, i.e. the Romeo and Juliet panel. Grelle is very serious about the baby thing. Why else would she help Madam Red and murder women who have abortions? It's her entire motivation for the Jack the Ripper thing, and she believes in what Madam Red is doing. spoiler[That's why she kills Madam Red when she won't kill Ciel and let them continue their murder spree.] |
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KrisEllieOphi
 Posts: 111 Location: Texas |
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How is Lissa supposed to know that? I really think this is an unfair attack. The fan book isn't published in America. And honestly, in the three volumes published so far here, there's no indication of what you're complaining about.
Grelle's over-the-top antics aren't a concrete answer for anything to someone who reads and large and varied amount of manga. The way he goes ga-ga over Sebastian is something that occurs in other series with completely straight men. The only thing that could possibly be used is his desire for a child, and really, that doesn't lead me to believe he's transgendered. And given Toboso's habit of playing with yaoi tropes among the straight characters, it's easy to brush it off. Grelle refers to himself as "she" and speaks in an effeminate manner in Yen Press's edition. But again, there are straight male characters who use that kind of speech (minus referring to themselves as "she", but Japanese pronouns can work a little differently). If anything, I'd say that Grelle is gay or at least bisexual. At this point in the story I wouldn't go so far as to say he's transgendered. |
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JabberwockCat
Posts: 6 |
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Grelle does not appear after volume 3. It doesn't matter that only the first three volumes in English, and there is plenty of evidence in them, some of which I covered above. (I have no idea what this was supposed to mean?) And you want to talk about unfair? Really? Not even gonna touch that one.
I wasn't referring to the over-the-top antics as being evidence of her gender identity, but as a part of what was being played-up for laughs.
You just admitted that Grelle refers to herself with "she." So, we ignore the canon facts as well? And she has stated that she wants a sex change, as well. Grelle identifies in every visible way as a woman, even point-blank saying "God made a mistake" in making her physically male. It doesn't matter what other characters in other series do or say, because in this series, Grelle says she is a woman. Also, being gay or bisexual does not mean you can not be transgendered. Sexuality and gender identity have little to do with one another. The bottom line is that this article is offensive to transpeople, and I would like the pronouns referring to Grelle changed. I'm not even asking for an apology, here. |
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Sunday Silence
 Posts: 2047 |
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But he does in the Anime appear past the Jack the Ripper events. And the VA for him is a HE.
My roomate, a Transgender MtF, beg to differ with you. |
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JabberwockCat
Posts: 6 |
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Grelle is male-bodied, so it makes sense that she would have a male voice. That doesn't make her male, just as when some anime characters who are male have female actors as their voices. Besides which, the anime and the manga are completely different entities. The anime has next-to-nothing to do with this discussion, as it was made with little of the original creator's input.
And my friends, some of who are MtF and some who are FtM, would beg to differ with you. Not all transgendered people react to things the same way, but that doesn't take away its offensiveness. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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There are enough people offering up reasonable disagreements and counterpoints to your view that I'm not going to treat your opinion on this issue as the Monolithic Truth regarding the matter, nor am I going to change the article to reflect your wishes. |
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